Why Check Flight? (insurance?)

[MajorCorporalArse]

I'm fairly annoyed at this!

I've gone from place to place (moving) and hired and A/C and 3 of 5 places have said they require a check flight due to insurance reasons?

Question being? Why? If you have current (within the last week) type experience?

I'm just confused as to the actual reasoning.. Personally I just see it as being a bit of a joke just to get some extra funds (usually getting an instructor and grade 1)

I have had someone ask for a check flight of 1 cct at no extra charge - No complaints from me..

My only justification is that "it's their a/c" but to charge you extra just makes me not want to return. Good Service = Repeat Business... doesn't matter what industry.

/End Rant.

[Old Akro]

You want to use someone else's aircraft. You follow their rules. Don't like the rules - buy one.

[morno]

If it were my aircraft, be stuffed if just because you flew someone elses the week before, that I'd be letting you loose in it. How do I know you fly it properly?

Agree with the above, don't like it, buy your own. An owner can make up whatever rules they want to look after their aircraft.

morno

[BlatantLiar]

I feel your pain.

I went on holiday with the family, I wanted to hire a cherokee to take them on a small scenic. Even though I had 300 hours on type with many in the past few months the flying school wanted 3 ccts at dual rates. I decided to take them out for ice cream instead...

[MajorCorporalArse]

I don't mind the check flight, i just think it's a joke to charge dual rates for it because they already make money out of you for the a/c hire as is.. Treat the customer well and be rewarded.. would you prefer $210.00 for 1 hour or $21,000.00 for 100 hours..

Plus they seem to site "ïnsurance" as the reason although after speaking to a few other places they claim that to be garbage..

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Major,

As an owner, I would want to fly a couple of circuits with you as well, just to see how you manage my engine and generally treat my 'pride and joy'....as I have had to do with other owners in the past.

Don't think I'd charge you dual rates for it though....I would just tack it on to your hire I reckon.

Anyway...his aircraft = his rules....

[c100driver]

You want to use someone else's aircraft. You follow their rules. Don't like the rules - buy one.

agree 100%

[Clearedtoreenter]

Try to think about this from an owners perspective. You really need to know who you are renting your (say) 200 grands worth of fragile equipment to. A bad renter can do thousands of dollars worth of damage very easily and that knocks a pretty big hole in a $200 rent. It just is not worth the risk as there are some real ratbags out there. (but no one on here of course!) It is also true that some insurance policies say something like 'pilots approved by the insured...' How are we supposed approve folks we don't know? Some folks need to understand we ain't Avis and at current rates its very hard to make anything from aircraft rental.

[Fandangled]

Depending on the type and performance of aircraft, insurance companies do give reduced premiums for aircraft if hirers are checked out first.

Please don't confuse service with price, the check flight is a very small charge compared to the long term hiring costs. Some establishments give you more service/advice (free help) for the price and then some just charge a lot for a clapped out old Warrior.

I have done a lot of check flights in my time and I've found generally the pilots that don't want to do a check are the ones that really need them, irrespective of hours or flying back-ground.

I wish i didn't have to do them when I go on holidays but hey they don't know me from a bar of soap so I don't mind.

[Tankengine]

Back in GA days I worked at a "holiday" airport and have done probably 100+ private hire check flights.
I always asked for 3 circuits, paid as dual because the instructor still needs to get paid!
I usually ended up seeing all 3 circuits as currency or type issues required it.
Sometimes I stopped it after one circuit if the hirer showed me he really was OK [you would be suprised how rare that was!]
Sometimes I could not let the aircraft be rented and had to suggest a training path for the [sometimes very "experienced" potential renter.]
Standards of private pilot are HUGELY variable.

Once a pilot was proven by checkflight and quietly observing their departure and arrival then they did not need another check next year etc as long as they remained current somewhere.
T

[YPJT]

You want to use someone else's aircraft. You follow their rules. Don't like the rules - buy one

MajorCorporalArse, So you think the check ride should be free? Do you also suggest that the aircraft operator pay for the instructor out of their pocket?

Remember an operator's premiums are based on a number of factors, not the least of which is claim history. To hire to anyone who walked in the door on the basis of them waving a licence and log book in your face would, IMHO, be a recipe for disaster.

[das Uber Soldat]

3 Circuits are understandable. I had one idiot try to do an entire GFPT with me to check me for a VFR by day scenic hire in a Cessna (700 hours on type) including partial panel I.F. Took 1.2 hours before I finally cracked it and ended the sortie 'prematurely'.

Be clear before you get in what is required.

[Clare Prop]

Unfortunately the standards, espcially of pilots who trained a long time ago, vary widely. A log book full of hours is no guarantee that the person can fly competently.


I've done check flights with people with CPLs who didn't have the required competencies for first solo. Recently had one who kept banging on about all his military helicopter experience who couldn't join or fly a circuit VFR in a fixed wing.


As said before, the people who grumble about doing a check ride are usually the ones who need it most and the ones who think instructors should give their time for free can go and buy their own aircraft.

Having said that there are some places that have draconian requirements for things like "90 day currency" but it's their train set so their rules.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Back in GA days I worked at a "holiday" airport and have done probably 100+ private hire check flights.
I always asked for 3 circuits, paid as dual because the instructor still needs to get paid!
I usually ended up seeing all 3 circuits as currency or type issues required it.
Sometimes I stopped it after one circuit if the hirer showed me he really was OK [you would be suprised how rare that was!]
Sometimes I could not let the aircraft be rented and had to suggest a training path for the [sometimes very "experienced" potential renter.]
Standards of private pilot are HUGELY variable.

Once a pilot was proven by checkflight and quietly observing their departure and arrival then they did not need another check next year etc as long as they remained current somewhere.

My experience as a private hirer for many years is entirely in agreement with the above.

3 x circuits were generally the go (minimum for insurance purposes, I always assumed), but sometimes one was enough. Seemed not unreasonable to me, for taking their $$$$$$ aeroplane off into the bush for a few days.

I recall hiring a C182 from Rex Aviation at Archerfield once when I was not a regular there. The CFI looked at my log book and saw that I was current on C185. "Probably not much to be gained from flying with you, is there? If you can handle a C185, I don't think the 182 will be a problem", was the response!

Then there was the time I enquired about private hiring a C210 in Townsville. Was told be the CFI/owner that a minimum 6 hrs checkout would be required - 3 hrs on the ground and 3 hrs in the air - all at dual rates.

At the time I had a CPL, CIR, 2000+ hrs TT and a couple of hundred hours on C210 and was quite current on the type.

I gave it a miss!

Dr

PS: A check ride is generally a small part of the overall hire - if you can't afford it, then you probably can't afford to hire the aeroplane.

[27/09]

Any time I went somewhere where I wasn't known, I expected to complete a check out. Same applied to anyone wanting to hire an aircraft I was responsible for. Generally three circuits but on the odd occasion one was enough to see the guy or gal was competent. Once they were a known quantity then provided they were current, no further checks were required with future hires.

All insurance policies I know of have a clause "as approved by the owner/operator" and in some cases require a dual check if the hirer hasn't completed X hours on type within the preceding 90 days. Who in their right mind would approve someone they didn't know?

I don't see how these check outs should be for free but neither should they be a full blown BFR either.

Once you've checked a few people out it's pretty obvious why it is a good idea, insurance requirements not withstanding.

One guy I was checking out for a foreign licence validation claimed to own shares in a PA28R. He showed pretty poor systems knowledge and ability for someone who owned an Arrow.

As has been already pointed out those that objected were invariably those that needed a check ride.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

I just wish I could suspend the license of some of the people I've had to check!

Love the "gimme some flyun for free and I'll spend thousands with you after" routine. Lets try that one at the pub!

Let's say you owned the aircraft. You gonna be happy for Dudley (who gets that reference?) to rock up with an entry on his logbook (entered by whom, might I ask?) as the sole proof that he/she is competent?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Got the 'link' Captain......lurve the book too...

I had the pleasure of a 'Dudley' many years ago. He dropped into Aircraft Rentals at BK and produced his log book meticulously made out showing pages of flying a particular 210 all over Qld. Like - 'I've been everywhere' man.
Sheer Fate - he picked the wrong bloke to show it to.

I had personally written off same 210 about two months earlier.

'Uncle Ray' rang 'Uncle Russ' and I kept him talkin' until Uncle Russ arrived....Game over.

Those of you who are of 'Those times' will know wot I mean.....

Can't trust just the logbook - but the usual 3 ccts will reveal all...
Cheers

[A37575]

Believe me there are some really awful pilots out there who shouldn't be flying but they still hold a licence of sorts. And no way would any sane flying school operator hire an aircraft to them without first checking their basic competency by a minimum of one circuit. It is not like car hire.

[Checkboard]

Originally Posted by CAO 40.1.0

4.4 The holder of a class endorsement must not fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of any aeroplane included in the class unless he or she:
(a) is familiar with the systems, the normal and emergency flight manoeuvres and aircraft performance, the flight planning procedures, the weight and balance requirements and the practical application of take-off and landing charts of the aeroplane to be flown; and
(b) has sufficient recent experience or training in the aeroplane type, or in a comparable type, to safely complete the proposed flight; and
(c) if an aeroplane in that class has a special design feature, holds a special design feature endorsement referred to in paragraph 5.1 for that design feature.
Note The owner and operator of an aeroplane included in a class of aeroplane should: (a) ensure that a person who proposes to fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of the aeroplane complies with subparagraph 4.4 (a); and
(b) where necessary, require the person to provide evidence of recent experience or training in the aeroplane type or in a comparable aeroplane type; and
(c) if the aeroplane has a special design feature, ensure that the person holds a special design feature endorsement for that design feature.

(Bolding mine.)

[Tinstaafl]

If you wanted to rent a PA31 I manage, you won't like the insurance mandated requirements -and they are insurance mandated. It's on the policy document. For any Joe Bloggs a CPL, IR, 2000hr TT, 1000multi and a 3 day recurrency course held at one of the major simulator training organisations within the last year ($2700 at Simcom with a returning customer discount). Further, I'd want to fly with you to make sure the engines are operated LOP using the EDM I had fitted. it's not all about whether you can land OK...

As a named, approved pilot on the insurance I just have to do an instrument proficiency check within the last year (last time was 1.4 hrs including ferry time each way & $48 for the instructor. Bargain!)