Christmas Day SR22 Crash

[VH-XXX]

Does anyone know anything about this slipping under the radar or have any pictures of it?

Apparently on Christmas day a Cirrus SR22 was written off at Warnervale. Landed short of the runway.

VH-MMG

[rioncentu]

One of Andrew Meidecke's several former cirri I think

He traded up pretty often and someone I knew was looking at MMG when it was for sale a few years back so I don't think twas his anymore.

[Jabawocky]

That was the SR22 Andy Meidecke flew around the long way from the factory.

He has a GTS turbo SR22 now I think, can't remember the rego off the top of my head.

Some one forgot to add power

[VH-XXX]

That's something to watch in the Cirrus. When the speed gets to around 75 knots on final it washes off very quickly indeed; you need to feed in quite a bit of power to get the speed back on the dial, otherwise she drops like a rock. Alternatively lower the nose but if it's on late final you are in a fair bit of trouble I haven't really flown in anything else like that; they fly like they are very heavy with little inertia.

[gassed budgie]

Spot on XXX. I remember slipping into Bourke some time ago on a very still, but pleasantly warm evening to pick up some fuel for the rest of the trip back home.
I was sliding down final for 23 and had the airspeed nailed at 75kts, letting it drift back to around 72kts just before rounding out. I wasn't to concerned about the airspeed washing off as there was only 1 pob and a bit over an hours fuel left onboard, so the aircraft was very light.
As the aircraft rounded out I reduced the power to idle, expecting the aircrafts inertia to carry me to the piano keys for a greaser. Hang on, what inertia?
The SR22 simply stopped and contacted the ground on the gravel over/under run a few metres short of the bitumen. As the green threshold lights were about to whip past the wingtips, I remember looking anxiously at the lip of the tarmac, hoping it wasn't going to be to big. I had visions of leaving the nose gear behind at that particular spot.
Fortunately it wasn't to pronounced and there was no damage to the gear or spats.
There was nothing I could have done to prevent this after reducing power. It was over in a couple seconds, nearly done and dusted before I realised what was happening.
So after quite a few thousnd hours of flying, I still managed to nearly bring myself undone in a matter of seconds.
You live and learn.

[AnyGivenSunday99]

There is a lot you can do. Like fly to the touchdown zone where the aircrafts performance figures are derived. Bourke is long enough not to have to fly at the piano keys.

[jas24zzk]

Dumb question.....maybe not so dumb given zero SR22 time.

Reading some of the comments/experienced exuded, I have to ask if the SR22 suffers from Reverse Command?????

The 22 isn't an aircraft that I'd expect to suffer from lack of inertia, really it isn't light. I've flown 350kg MTOW a/c that have enough inertia to carry them to the other end of a 6000' strip, even with half the anchors out.

[jas24zzk]

anygivensunday99

There is a lot you can do. Like fly to the touchdown zone where the aircrafts performance figures are derived. Bourke is long enough not to have to fly at the piano keys.

Don't think I can agree with you here. In a kero-burner or someone that only visits million mile long strips, this is a very safe option sure.

However..........

what about when you are into somewhere that needs as much strip as you can get.........aiming in will only make you an insurance statistic. Aiming in like that every time you fly, whilst safe, won't hone or maintain your skills. Its as bad as lazy R/T procedure.

[VH-XXX]

The SR22 simply stopped and contacted the ground on the gravel over/under run a few metres short of the bitumen.

Exactly what happened to MMG from what we have read but he was unfortunate enough to have hit wet grass. It's something to watch out for particularly given that you can't do a traditional flare. I've seen a few Cirrus tails that have hit the ground under similar circumstances.

[Clearedtoreenter]

Exactly what happened to MMG from what we have read but he was unfortunate enough to have hit wet grass. It's something to watch out for particularly given that you can't do a traditional flare. I've seen a few Cirrus tails that have hit the ground under similar circumstances.

Blahhhh... He just should have bought a forgiving, well mannered 182!

[Checkboard]

Originally Posted by jas24zzk

aiming in will only make you an insurance statistic. Aiming in like that every time you fly, whilst safe, won't hone or maintain your skills.

You only need to be accurate with landing on your aiming point in order to maintain your skills - and that point doesn't need to be the first bit of tarmac. (Pssst - that's why they paint aiming point markings! )

Aiming for the first bit of tarmac EVERY time means ZERO margin for landing short - as you admitted you did. Leaving ZERO margin in any aspect of aviation makes for an unsafe operation.

[jas24zzk]

Sorry,
poorly written on my part.

You are correct, it doesn't need to be the first part of the tarmac (that bits actually before the piano keys). To hone your skills, the touchdown point should be a spot of your choosing....i.e Aeroclub spot landing comps.

That being said tho, landing in the IFR target zone on a strip long enough to do 2 touch and goes without a circuit, isn't going to help you when you are 3500 feet up and 40 degree's on a 600m strip.

Aiming for the first bit of tarmac EVERY time means ZERO margin for landing short - as you admitted you did

No I didn't Read it again

[Checkboard]

oops sorry - I thought you were the "gassed budgie" story, was just scanning the thread.

[jas24zzk]

No stress,
actually, the budgie story and XXX's account were the catalyst for my type specific question.

[Kulwin Park]

@ Gassed Budgie - great descriptive story! Need more of those, listing speed, etc. As I'm about to embark on a SR22 endorsement, your words came in handy

[Trent 972]

Jas

That being said tho, landing in the IFR target zone on a strip long enough to do 2 touch and goes without a circuit, isn't going to help you when you are 3500 feet up and 40 degree's on a 600m strip.

What will help you, is recognizing that if you need to aim at the piano keys to land within the runway bounds, then perhaps you have neglected CAO 20.7.4 issue 4

10 LANDING DISTANCE REQUIRED
10.1 Subject to paragraphs 10.3 and 10.4, an aeroplane must not land unless the landing distance available is equal to or greater than the distance required to bring the aeroplane to a complete stop or, in the case of aeroplanes operated on water, to a speed of 3 knots, following an approach to land at a speed not less than 1.3VS maintained to within 50 feet of the landing surface. This distance is to be measured from the point where the aeroplane first reaches a height of 50 feet **above the landing surface** and must be multiplied by the following factors:
(a) 1.15 for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights of 2 000 kg or less;
(b) 1.43 for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights of 4 500 kg or greater;
(c) for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights between 2 000 kg and 4500 kg, a factor derived by linear interpolation between 1.15 and 1.43 according to the maximum take-off weight of the aeroplane.

Unless of course the provisions of section 10.4 are being used

10.4 This subsection does not apply in the case of an emergency.

My weekday drive uses an Aim Point (on a 3 deg slope) of 400m from the threshold and that has the wheels crossing the threshold at 20 feet, and that's not a great margin for error, more than enough for skills retention. With my weekend ride I use a Required Landing Distance (unfactored) measured from the far end of the runway as a point at which if the wheels aren't on the runway then I Go-Around. My aim point is between that latest touchdown point and the Piano Keys.
It is never ever the piano keys. That would just be an accident looking for somewhere to happen.
ps. I know this doesn't apply to you, but for those readers looking to get into an airline. A common sight in the sim test is seeing applicants after a stable approach , suddenly dive at the threshold. Instant fail baby!
It's all about inertia and thrust/power margins, same as being discussed for the SR22.

[VH-XXX]

@ Gassed Budgie - great descriptive story! Need more of those, listing speed, etc. As I'm about to embark on a SR22 endorsement, your words came in handy

Kulwin Park - it's probably the only major thing to worry about when doing circuits in the SR20 or 22. I usually bring her in at no less than 75 knots on late final, any less and the speed drops off very quickly. As stated once it drops to 72 or less things can get a little nasty and you'll struggle with the roundout and end up stalling her on (bad).

With 3 or 4 POB I come in a little faster, just a few knots; Mainly because throttle response isn't overly fast as the CSU is automatic, it's not like you are set to full fine already, because as you add rapid power the CSU takes a while to settle in and give you some useful thrust.

Of course, the other part to the Cirrus landing is that you can't flare it as you traditionally would; if you do, you'll likely hit the tail on the ground. You simply fly her into the ground gently.... it's not that hard really, you just come in fairly shallow in the final stage of landing.

Good luck with your endorsement. They are a fun aircraft because they are moderately fast and they are new and many of us are so used to crappy old 172's that a modern aircraft is a welcome change.

[gassed budgie]

Of course, the other part to the Cirrus landing is that you can't flare it as you traditionally would; if you do, you'll likely hit the tail on the ground. You simply fly her into the ground gently.... it's not that hard really, you just come in fairly shallow in the final stage of landing.

Good luck with your endorsement. They are a fun aircraft because they are moderately fast and they are new and many of us are so used to crappy old 172's that a modern aircraft is a welcome change

What do mean "crappy old 172's?" I'll have to go out and give the old girl a pat on the cowl. It's probably hiding down the back of the hangar, sulking in the corner after reading that!
34 years old in October, but exceptionaly clean and very original. Flys like a new one too(and so it should with the new engine).

But as far as landing the Cirrus is concerned, I've never really approached that phase of the flight all that differently from anything thing else that I've flown.
I still round it out and hold it off, as per normal. I suppose the configuration of the airframe and the way the cowl slopes away form the windscreen, gives one the impression that the nose doesn't come up as far when landing the Cirrus. I tend to land the Cirrus with a higher nose attitude than almost any other Cirrus driver I've spotted out there. This probably stems from spending far too much time over the years (more than's good for me!) in too many Cessna's. I reckon if you could measure the angle between the airfoil (or it's chordline) and the runway surface, assuming it's level, that angle would almost be the same in the Cirrus as it would be in the 182/210 when you roll the mains onto the pavement.
I've always used the piano keys/threshold markings as the aim point. Unless it's a very long runway or for some other operational requirement, I can't see much reason for pointing the aeroplane anywhere else.
It still astounds me when I see (yesterday in fact) people out there using 3,000' (!!!) to get a 172 down and on to the runway. They missed the cross strip and sailed/floated right on past the two taxiways. By the time the poor old 172 had ground to a halt, it had used nearly 5,000' of bitumen!
I'm not sure where they were looking, but it would appear that the aeroplane wasn't pointed at the right bit of runway.

In the previous post above, I was actually aiming short of the runway intending to round out and touch down on the piano keys, for reasons best left to myself. As some have correcly suggested, you would normally give yourself a bit more room than this. At the time I think I only had around 15 hrs in the Cirrus and probably less the a dozen landings, no excuse I might add for quite convincingly catching myself out.
Be careful out there!

[VH-XXX]

I still round it out and hold it off, as per normal.

I'd be interested to see tail's proximity to the runway during the later stage of your round-out. The last Cirrus pilot that I saw that tried to land it like a Cessna smacked the tail on the ground 3 times in a row

[gassed budgie]

I still round it out and hold it off, as per normal.

....in terms of landing the Cirrus, not the Cessna. I can't for the life of me see how anyone could drag the tiedown bung along the runway, except perhaps with a very rearwards C of G and even then you'd have to be trying really hard.