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casa and the Coroners Courts

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Old 10th Jan 2012, 05:15
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casa and the Coroners Courts

1. Toowoomba [KingAir] : Counsel Assisting: Mr Simon Hamlyn-Harris Civil Aviation Safety Authority: Mr Ian Harvey (i/b Phillips Fox)

2. Willowbank [PJOps]: Counsel Assisting Coroner: Mr Ian Harvey Civil Aviation Safety Authority: Mr Andrew Luchich (instructed by CASA Legal department)

3. Mareeba Microlight: Counsel Assisting Coroner: Mr J Tate, Crown Law No CASA

4. Hamilton Island [Fuel selector]: Counsel assisting: Mr Simon Hamlyn-Harris Civil Aviation Safety Authority: Mr Ian Harvey

5. Lockhart River [Metro]: Counsel Assisting Coroner: Mr Ian Harvey Civil Aviation Safety Authority: Mr Peter Dunning SC with Mr Andrew Luchich (instructed by Blake Dawson Waldron Lawyers)

6. Gunpowder Chopper: Counsel Assisting Coroner: Mr Ian Harvey Civil Aviation Safety Authority: Mr Joe Rule (instructed by CASA Legal department)

7. EMS Chopper: Assisting: Mr John Tate, Counsel, Crown Law, No CASA

8. What's next???


Summary: In five out of seven coronial enquiry’s, Ian Harvey appears, twice for casa and three as Counsel Assisting Coroner.

Surely this is a gross conflict of interest and not in the best interest of finding out what really happened and the best way to fix the issues underlying the cause of the incident.

We should note from the casa annual reports that in 2010-2011, Ian Harvey was paid $154,736, $219,259 in 2009-10 and $89,115 in 2008-09.

Last edited by Up-into-the-air; 10th Jan 2012 at 17:12.
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Old 10th Jan 2012, 05:28
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You only just noticed that.

Shane Erqhart (sorry about the spelling) would have a lot more to say if you ask him.
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Old 10th Jan 2012, 10:05
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Vermin

Yes, another example of 'robust processes' and 'worlds best practice' in action.
No snouts in the trough in these instances is there?
Not only is it a disgrace but the persons who orchestrated this sham and hired this guy should be dragged before a royal commission.
I would imagine Shane Urqhart is trying to get on with life which must be painful enough, and probably cringes every time he hears this sort of crap.
They may as well sing karaoke and dance on the graves of those lost in these accidents.
The government should hang its head in shame at the antics of these unconscionable vermin.
And don't forget that those orchestrating, approving and accepting of this stuff get paid bonuses on top of their plump salaries!
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 06:25
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Funny coincidence dept.

Just finished a stack of reading related to some of those incidents (courtesy of the Hume dam thing). The difference in the number of Coroner recommendations between the cases is to say the least, interesting. There is a real coincidence for you students of such things. Worth a look at. Talk about things that make you go Hmmm.

I will find and post that wonderful paragraph from the Lane report, the 'Mystique of Air Safety', sure it can be dredged up.
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 06:58
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Googling the 'Mystique of Air Safety' brings up some interesting articles, in particular W.J.R. Hamilton's submission for the 'Development of a National Aviation Policy Statement'. Which I assume is the Aviation White (Elephant) Paper.


Hamilton's statement in regards to the Mystique thingy was:

The "Fear of Flying" &"The Mystique of Air Safety" will always weigh very heavily on the deliberations of any lay (in aviation terms) person conducting any inquiry into aviation safety or its administration.
The rest of his, very good, submission can be found here:

......more's the pity (but typical) that the Minister obviously buried his head in the sand and chose to ignore Hamilton's recommendations.......

Tootle Pip

Last edited by Sarcs; 11th Jan 2012 at 10:18. Reason: Jaba suggestion
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Old 11th Jan 2012, 18:11
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1988 and all that

Hada quick 'skim' through some of the marked pages, quite disturbing how many of the recommendations of the first and second “Lane” substantive recommendations are still relevant.

When you consider the huge difference Parts 21 to 35 made (engines on condition; private IFR etc.) that they should have just continued on. Anyway, from Air Safety Regulation Review, The Legal Framework of Air Safety Regulation, 12/1988, called the “Lane” Report, (which is story for another day).

Page 35.
There is little or no tradition then of Parliamentary involvement in legislation in the area. The Act is largely ignored while ignored while real legislative (or regulatory) activity has traditionally occurred at subordinate levels, and particularly at the Authority level.

(b) The Mystique of Air Safety.
There is little that in the past air safety issues have been perceived as having a mystique. Just flying is an expert skill which few have, air safety is seen as an expert matter, in which politicians and others should not meddle. That view has been expressed to the Task Force by officers of the Authority.

With most air safety controls being in the Authority’s hands, and not made by Parliamentary scrutiny, it has been easy for officers to maintain a mystique which has been difficult to challenge. In turn, it has been alleged that this has led to an introspective and reactionary approach to rule making which is not healthy.

(c) Expediency.
Accustomed to having the power to make the rules, and without a tradition of referring to higher authority, the Authority has preferred expediency in rule making to the need to ensure a proper, formal legal base for the rules. In fairness to the Authority, the process of change of the Act or Regulations has been inappropriately slow and needs to be expedited. However, by circumventing the proper formal process for rule making, the Authority has contributed to the legal uncertainties that exist today.
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 23:04
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The Mystique of Air Safety.
This statement probably should be widened to say 'The Mystique of Aviation'. This is the perception that the regulator and large parts of the industry have reinforced over the decades.

The reason for the regulator reinforcing this 'Mystique' is obvious, it suits their cause. The less the pollies and general public know about aviation the less oversight and scrutiny of the performance of the regulator.

The challenge for the aviation industry participants is how to break down this 'mystique'?
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Old 14th Jan 2012, 06:09
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The challenge for the aviation industry participants is how to break down this 'mystique'?
Capt Hamilton had a very good go at making some sense of it all, way back then. They must have buried that report along with all the other good sense, advice and opinion at the bottom of Gobbledocks much loved trough. Perhaps that why they keep digging away in there.

Perhaps things will improve in the New year.
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Old 14th Jan 2012, 08:53
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Grrr

Perhaps things will improve in the New year.
They won't unfortunately, until the cancer's removed, starting from the Minister, and then continuing going down through the department and the CASA (so-called) management heirarchy.

Because:

With most air safety controls being in the Authority’s hands, and not made by Parliamentary scrutiny, it has been easy for officers to maintain a mystique which has been difficult to challenge. In turn, it has been alleged that this has led to an introspective and reactionary approach to rule making which is not healthy.
Albanese is a complete and total idiot who doesn't know what he doesn't know about the continued uncontrolled civil aviation mismanagement that's occurring here in Australia under his watch. Unfortunately the same was true for the previous government, so Albanese's not a 'solo' idiot in this regard.

But until parliament realises that the bureaucracy that's running the show is so far removed from reality that it's now not funny, is an international joke insofar as regulatory 'reform' is concerned, is wasting so sh1tloads of taxpayers' funds, and is basically doing 5/8ths of fcuk-all to improve ANYTHING, then no matter what you and I as PRuNers think.......


we're 'rooned'

.
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 02:36
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casa, Lochart River and the Industry Oversight Project

Recommendation 2 [Lockhart River Coroners Findings 17th August 2007]– Limit on multiple or conflicting roles

"I recommend that CASA consider creating firm guidelines that require consideration of workload, lines of authority, potential conflicts of interest and any other factors that impact upon the ability of “key personnel” to discharge their responsibilities within an aviation organisation when its officers are approving appointments to those positions."

In part the Coroner said:

“….. CASA contends that under a current ‘Industry Oversight Project’ the adequacy of training and checking organisations and the standards adopted by CASA to assess those organisations is being ‘comprehensively’ addressed. However, there is no indication of when the consideration of these proposals and projects is likely to be completed or what specific regulatory measures will be introduced. …..”

The question is, has casa met these obligations???

The ‘Industry Oversight Project’ did not see light of day until January 2008, when Aviation Projects Pty Ltd were given a tender for $472,000.

Two further tenders for $240,000 and $98,000 were awarded at the same time to Aviation Consultants International and Redwand Pty Ltd t/a Thirty South Consulting for parts of the same task. [Industry Oversight Project, Industry Oversight Project - Policy & Procedures Development and Industry Oversight Project - Training Development Scope of Work.]: by June 2008, to develop an analysis and reporting system to identify risk factors and trends.

casa said in the 2008 annual report:

“The Aviation Safety Oversight Program (ASOP) is enabling CASA to assess the safety of air operators and other permission holders through a structured approach based on systems safety and risk management principles.

Status: Image of tick”
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By 2009, 2010 and 2011, this project has “morphed” into just “Industry Oversight” in the annual report, no mention of ‘Industry Oversight Project’

Again, the question to be asked is: “Has casa met the requirements of the Coroner in Queensland” for Recommendation 2” ????
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 04:01
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Bring home the bacon !!!

Up-Into-The Air, keep digging. ASOP cost a lot more than that. And when the Screaming Skull commenced his tenure he hit the roof when it came to his attention that this group of 'experts' making up team ASOP were nothing more than coffee drinking nupty's who did not have a flicker of an idea about anything. It was either 33 or 34 projects they undertook with NOT one actually finished! The actual cost of money spent was in the millions.
So I would probably issue the Skull a 'get out of jail free card' on this one, but take a look at the CASA bureaucrats in Canberra who sanctioned this group. Don't look too far though, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and many of the same snouts are buried in the same CASA troughs!

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Old 16th Jan 2012, 05:57
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Were these coffee drinkers to be found at villa and hut dfo Bris or in Canberra

Gd , cmt groups will fix it all up now. The latest answer to everything.

Last edited by halfmanhalfbiscuit; 16th Jan 2012 at 06:15. Reason: Iphone predictive text
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 09:27
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Biscuit, there were a mixture of trough dwellers in the ASOP gang. Nupty's from Canberra, Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne. Coffee shops across the country copped a workout from these smooth talking minions. Lots of 'working group meetings', travelling, hypothesizing, theoretical discussions and other such folly.
Return on investment in this group?? ZERO. Half of them have left the organisation, but the puppet masters remain. Same tricks, same unsuccessful outcomes, just a different year, and one thing remains certain;


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Old 16th Jan 2012, 20:04
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Just us and Justice

Sorry, can't get the link to work, but The Australian + Robin Speed + Jan 15, 2010 got me there. If you have read the article, well done. If you have not, it's worth the 5 minutes it takes to do so. I have 'cherry picked' some paragraphs as an appetiser. This is no bar room barrister banging on tub and the implications of this article are, I believe serious.

Robin Speed is president of the Rule of Law Association of Australia.
Robin Speed is the co-founder of Speed and Stracey and senior consultant to the firm. He has over 40 years of continuous experience in practising law in Sydney. He is highly regarded for his academic knowledge and commercial advice.

The consequences are serious. The first is that Australia will cease to be a world leader in being governed in accordance with the rule of law, and instead become ruled by law (there being a fundamental difference). Secondly, the rule of law will be progressively replaced by the rule of the regulator, the antithesis of the rule of law.

For example, in the last eight years the ATO has issued more than 80,000 private rulings on what it says the law says (these rulings became law to the applicant, regardless of what the High Court might declare the law to mean for the rest of the community).

Rather, the intimidation of existing powers is believed insufficient to obtain compliance, so greater powers and harsher penalties are deemed necessary. Yet the futility of forcing compliance in this way was seen centuries ago by the penalty of hanging for stealing a loaf of bread. Further, the regulators increasingly find it difficult before an independent court to obtain a conviction.

One of the other signs of the rule of the regulator is the attempt to reverse the onus of proof so that the regulators can get convictions to send a clear message to the rest of the community. The Australian courts are a real impediment to regulators in this regard as they insist that no one is presumed to be guilty unless proved so.
Nice to know it's not just us upset, but justice as well.

Selah
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 01:23
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Rather, the intimidation of existing powers is believed insufficient to obtain compliance, so greater powers and harsher penalties are deemed necessary. Yet the futility of forcing compliance in this way was seen centuries ago by the penalty of hanging for stealing a loaf of bread. Further, the regulators increasingly find it difficult before an independent court to obtain a conviction.
Australian aviation is reverting to the 'hanging for stealing a loaf of bread' mentality at a rapid rate. And tell me, did hanging somebody for nicking a loaf of bread prevent bread being stolen? Nope. And as for 'regulators increasingly find it difficult before an independent court to obtain a conviction' this is true. But the endless pot of taxpayer money ensures the Regulator keeps pushing the punitive line. Maybe CASA should have its pot of gold limited to X amount of money? That would see an overnight halt on frivilous legal witch hunts and assist in reintroducing accountabilty.


One of the other signs of the rule of the regulator is the attempt to reverse the onus of proof so that the regulators can get convictions to send a clear message to the rest of the community. The Australian courts are a real impediment to regulators in this regard as they insist that no one is presumed to be guilty unless proved so.
In CASA's eyse everybody is guilty, all of the the time. Innocent until porven guilty is not even in their vocabulary. If that was something they supported (which would ironicaly align with a just culture and a fair system) they wouldnt be continuously getting personal with people, enforcing legal action when a complaint is made about them to the ICC, bullying industry or indiduals when an Inspector's ego is bruised or when it is rasied with them that a decison they have made is merely incorrect.


Finally:

a) At an impost to industry I recomend anybody with a business that can afford to employ a permanent legal representative do so.

b) I recomend legal representation at all meetings, discussions and phone calls. I recomend all applications, submissions and requests be scrutinzed first by your legal representative.

c) I recomend the use of recording equipment, covert or otherwise, dependant upon the rules covering this in your individual state within Australia.

d) I recomend recording phone calls and absolutely KEEPING ALL EVIDENCE if you do not currently do so. Keep all emails, letters, receipts, written requests, anything and everything.

e) Manually record in a diary the time, date and details of any conversation or correspondence.

f) If you are not office based but you work in an environment such as hangar, airside, maintenance or manufacturer workshop then actually film the CASA representative at all times if you can.

Industry has to step up to the plate. Industry has to unite on this because the regulator is not a regulator anymore, rather it is a fully punitive Stasi like regime that has eroded trust and respect to the point that we must now react in a way that is commensurate with how they treat us. Fight fire with fire.

My suggestion for their new logo:
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 05:11
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I strongly recommend keeping a record of all docs emails and the diary. I was fortunate to be able to prove my version of events and that they had lied. Like gd says getting in front of an independent court is the key.

Good lawyers are expensive though, but falling foul of casa is ........... very expensive.
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 11:34
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No, never??

Biscuit, are you certain? They lied? It was CASA who lied, right? Surely not? We are talking about the same organization aren't we? A government department in which it's officers, public servants, are legally bound to act ethically, transparently and honestly with integrity at all times!

Should I try to speak about this 'lying issue' with the former Exec of Human Resources? Or maybe i should go back even further and chat with his predecessor, who isn't 'hopping along' all that well these days (Karma can be a real bitch). Or maybe I should chat with one of the current minions or maybe the I.R guy (who is ex ASIO) and treats each employee within the organization as if they are guilty of some war crime or act of treason? Or what about the former health department HR nupty who is now sitting in the steaming seat! Yes yes the government health department is another fine example of a 'success story' isn't it? Thats actually what I find entertaining about governments in general, they usually shuffle their trash between departments, but the outcome is always the same !!!

Flush

Last edited by gobbledock; 19th Jan 2012 at 11:39. Reason: Almost tripped over some pony poo
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Old 20th Jan 2012, 20:27
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This is a serious thread

For many reasons, most of them deep, dark and twisted. The deeper the research there more convoluted and grim it appears, on the surface to a tax paying layman.

Biscuit, are you certain? They lied? It was CASA who lied, right? Surely not? We are talking about the same organization aren't we? A government department in which it's officers, public servants, are legally bound to act ethically, transparently and honestly with integrity at all times!
This is the real point. We, the travelling public and the Parliament should be able to implicitely believe the authority. But we can't can we ??. The bloody Easter bunny has more credibility.

For Saturday thinking :-
Sellers: The Affair of the Lone Banana - not a pretty story, I fear; still, the BBC will buy this cheap trash. However... The central character in this story is young Fred Nurke. His father, Lord Marks, made a fortune from the great Marks Laundry business... But then you've all heard of Laundry Marks haven't you... Ha ha ha. Oh dear oh dear. But let's start the story from the beginning.
Sellers: The Affair of the Lone Banana, Chapter Three. In the grounds of the British Embassy, our heroes are dug in around the lone banana tree - the last symbol of waning British prestige in South America. They all anxiously await the return of Fred Nurke. Around them, the jungle night is alive with revels - and nocturnal sounds. Rain in places, fog patches on the coast. Arsenal 2 - Chinese Wanderers 500
And one for GD:-
MORIARTY: But Grytpype it's all these little pigs. They keep biting me. I don't look like a pig. I don't sound like a pig. (Raves)

Last edited by Kharon; 20th Jan 2012 at 20:55. Reason: Forgot the important bit.
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Old 21st Jan 2012, 19:32
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Coroners Court - Victoria

This report was released late last year and makes interesting reading.

As you all remember, there was a lot of discussion about it and issues of AirServices (I note, Represented by Ian Harvey)

A full read at:

http://www.coronerscourt.vic.gov.au/...ted_263904.pdf
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Old 24th Jan 2012, 05:55
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AND more on the Qualifications

Just a bit of published information on these two people. Have a careful read of the places they both have been and the timing.

Interesting read??? :

Ian Harvey Late 2011


Biography: Ian Harvey is a barrister at the private Bar practising from 3rd Floor, Wentworth Chambers, 180 Phillip Street, Sydney. He graduated LLB (Hons) from the Australian National University in 1974 and completed a Master of Laws (LLM) degree from Osgoode Hall Law School, York University, Toronto, Canada in 1981. He was a Research Student at the London School of Economics in 1986.

Ian was a lawyer with the Commonwealth Attorney-General's Department and the Australian Government Solicitor in Canberra from 1975 to 1989. In 1982/83 he was seconded to the law firm Stephen Jaques Stone James in Sydney. He joined the Sydney Bar in 1989 and practiced as a barrister in Sydney and Canberra before accepting a position for 12 months as Corporate Counsel of the Civil Aviation Authority in Canberra in 1992. He returned to the Sydney Bar in 1993. He took a short-term appointment as Corporate Counsel of the Roads and Traffic Authority of NSW in March 1997 and returned to the private Bar in Sydney in1998. His main areas of practice are in administrative and public law, transport law, aviation regulation and tort law generally. He has represented various parties at Inquiries and Inquests and has assisted the Queensland State Coroner [and casa - my addition] in a number of aviation related inquests.

Jonathan Aleck

Jonathan Aleck earned his law degree (JD) at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles. He holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in psychology and a Master of Arts degree in political science from the University of Oregon and a Doctorate of Philosophy in law from the Research School of Social Sciences at the Australian National University. [Title: Law and sorcery in Papua New Guinea: a reconsideration of the relationship between law and custom - Published 1996.]

Before and since arriving in Australia in 1988, Dr Aleck has combined a professional and academic career as a lawyer, a legal consultant and a university lecturer. He has taught law and politics at the Australian National University (in both the Faculty of Law and the Public Policy Programme), the University of Canberra, the University of Hawaii and the University of Oregon in the United States, and the University of Papua New Guinea.

Jonathan Aleck started work with the then Civil Aviation Authority in 1993 as a legal officer, then Chief Legal Officer and Executive Manager of CASA’s Legal Services Division. Before joining CASA, he lectured in law and politics at universities in Australia, Papua New Guinea and the United States, and for many years was the director of a private legal research and consultative organisation.

From 1998 until 2003, he was the Australian representative to the International Civil Aviation Organization, based in Montreal. During that time, he also lectured on an occasional visiting basis at the Institute of Air and Space Law at McGill University [Montreal, Quebec, Canada]. Immediately prior to his appointment to the ICAO Council, he served as General Manager of CASA’s Aviation Safety Compliance Division, and before that as Regional Manager of the Authority’s West Region.
Dr Aleck is currently a member of the National Executive Committee of the Australian Institute of Administrative Law.
Jonathan Aleck now is Associate Director of Aviation Safety of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA).

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