Alternates & TEMPO Thunderstorms

[newifr]

Hi all,

Q1: I wanted to know if your destination has TEMPO TS (Thunderstorms), my understanding is that you require the alternate however can you just carry the 60min holding instead of the alternate.

Q2: If you can carry the 60mins holding at the destination then can your alternate have TEMPO TS also and just make sure you carry 60mins for it also.

Q3: If you can't do that, and there wasn't TS at the alternate and there was a TEMPO for low cloud would you then be able just to carry the 60mins holding at your alternate and meet all the legal requirements?


If someone could clear this up for me and give me a definitive answer it would be greatly appreciated as I believe some of my peers are giving me a bum steer.

Thanks in advance NI

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Q1: I wanted to know if your destination has TEMPO TS (Thunderstorms), my understanding is that you require the alternate however can you just carry the 60min holding instead of the alternate.

Yes

Q2: If you can carry the 60mins holding at the destination then can your alternate have TEMPO TS also and just make sure you carry 60mins for it also.

If you are holding 60min fuel (at the holding fuel flow) then you don't need an alternate.

Q3: If you can't do that, and there wasn't TS at the alternate and there was a TEMPO for low cloud would you then be able just to carry the 60mins holding at your alternate and meet all the legal requirements?

N/A - see 2.


UTR

[newifr]

Thanks for your reply UTR.

I do have one final question though, can you use an alternate which has Thunderstorms forecast on the TAF ie . TEMPO 60min TS?

Thanks NIFR

[tmpffisch]

The key point is that it's a TEMPO. Unless the TS is forecast outside of a TEMPO or INTER, or there is anything outside those periods below alternate minima, having holding fuel rather than an alternate is fine.

[compressor stall]

It might be "fine" legally, but is it sensible?

[Capt Claret]

I do have one final question though, can you use an alternate which has Thunderstorms forecast on the TAF ie . TEMPO 60min TS?

Yes. Tempo doesn't require an alternate, and may not even require holding fuel. After all, the tempo could be for an improvement in conditions, it doesn't have to be for a deterioration.

At the end of the day, an aerodrome cannot be nominated as an alternate, if it requires an alternate. So just TEMPO TS wouldn't require an alternate, just 60 mins holding fuel as a MINIMUM.

[morno]

It might be "fine" legally, but is it sensible?

Wise words Stallie.

Take the above into consideration. You may only have to carry your legally required minimum fuel, but a smart aviator would allow extra for contingency. Ie. You're on your way out to Backofthesticks with your minimum legally required fuel, you've just held for 55mins and old mate lands on the runway before you on the only available runway and forget's to put his wheels down. Then what are you going to do?

I might be happy to run around up and down the coast carrying near minimal fuel with lot's of options should sh*t hit the fan, but once I start venturing out to where my options become limited (both airports and airports with fuel), then be buggered if I'm going to be planning on arriving at my destination with 0 margin.

morno

[Jabawocky]

And if that holding puts you into the dark time

And the PAL does not work..... And the local community dude is at a party, the cops and ambo's have to cut the lock to the light box with bolt cutters. Then they still can't figure out how to turn the lights on........

......... And then the cloud rolls in and surrounds you while holding at the MSA.

Could never happen like that could it morno? Where is the big bloke for comment on this story? I bet his answer was lots a fuel


Chuckles and I have a mate here in Brisbane who was fondly telling stories of the days of old as a young FO, one of his old Captains said..... More fuel son, now what was the question again?

[morno]

Sounds like someone was telling you about their night flight last week Jaba, .

Me was on my way out to a flicker of light (well, it looked like a flicker from about 150nm's out, at least my lights worked upon arrival, ) out in the sticks...... with plenty of fuel, listening to some poor barstard fly circles over a certain community in NW QLD because them dreaded lights wouldn't work.

More fuel is the answer. I want every pound I can possibly have.

morno

[Jamair]

Jaba - I have it on good authority that when ATC quizzed that PIC on latest time to divert to the alternate, the answer was "Still have 3.5 hours holding available" (plus alternate and reserves).....

If I ever prang my aeroplane, the searchers won't have too much trouble finding it - it'll burn for three days with the amount of fuel on board!

Ancient wisdom -

Three things that are of no use to the pilot: Air in the tanks, runway behind you, altitude above you.

Three things available to the pilot, any two of which are necessary to keep you alive - brains, altitude and airspeed.

[newifr]

As Capt. Claret was saying:

At the end of the day, an aerodrome cannot be nominated as an alternate, if it requires an alternate.

So can i presume an alternate with TEMPO TS is ok, providing you carry the holding fuel??

On a slighly different note, what is the consensus amongst everyone in the following situation:

Planned A to B (3 hour flight) no additional fuel requirements other than the normal trip fuel etc. as weather at A and B is CAVOK.

Halfway to B ATC issues an amended TAF for B for which
PROB 30 INTER TS are now forecast, a deterioration that was not planned for in the fuel calculations on the ground and therefore fuel you do not have in flight.

Common sense dictates you would have 30min of contigency fuel for such occurences, however im asking that you answer the following question on the basis you do no have this contigency fuel on board.

Q: Are you legally required to divert enroute to pick up fuel to meet the 30mins or alternate requirement?


Thanks for all the replies it been a big help.

NIFR

[mattyj]

flight plan in the office..once you've launched, you've launched..you don't have any contingency, alternate or holding fuel in your tanks..just fuel remaining..use it wisely

[Jabawocky]

You two funny guys crack me up, but I can't thank you enough for all the bits and pieces I soak up from you guys whenever I can. Any youngsters out there, use the search function and follow their posts.....most of it is good stuff, the rest is picking on me.....prolly deserved too

Jamair....yes if I spear in, the first thing ticked off the list will be fuel. Even to somewhere like YMGI or YSGE which is 1.5 each way or around 70-75 litres, I depart with 280. I hope I never have to hold that long, must remember to pack an empty milk bottle

[Jabawocky]

On a slighly different note, what is the consensus amongst everyone in the following situation:

Planned A to B (3 hour flight) no additional fuel requirements other than the normal trip fuel etc. as weather at A and B is CAVOK.

Halfway to B ATC issues an amended TAF for B for which
PROB 30 INTER TS are now forecast, a deterioration that was not planned for in the fuel calculations on the ground and therefore fuel you do not have in flight.

Common sense dictates you would have 30min of contigency fuel for such occurences, however im asking that you answer the following question on the basis you do no have this contigency fuel on board.

Q: Are you legally required to divert enroute to pick up fuel to meet the 30mins or alternate requirement?

Go take a peek at the ranting myself, morno and Jamair have had on the Norfolk Island Westwind threads ( several of them) and despite what is legal and what is not, put yourself in those shoes and ask, at the time of receiving wx that is now below the alternate minima, and you have no planned holding fuel or alternate, nor ability to divert once overhead, but you do right now enroute. What should or would you do?

Cheers

[RENURPP]

flight plan in the office..once you've launched, you've launched..you don't have any contingency, alternate or holding fuel in your tanks..just fuel remaining..use it wisely

Do you have a reference to support that little gem?

[Shagpile]

Three things that are of no use to the pilot: Air in the tanks, runway behind you, altitude above you.

Don't forget the 4th most useless thing in aviation: hours in a navigators logbook.

[tmpffisch]

Do you have a reference to support that little gem?

Wording is probably something such as "shall not depart without adequate fuel". After that, it's up to proper airmanship to ensure a plan is in place.

[Oktas8]

"commence" I think is the word. Rule 234.

But CAAP 234-1 is an excellent idiot's guide (at least this idiot found it so.)

I am determined to finish my career aged 65+ without ever having suffered a fuel embarrassment. This guides my thinking on departing to remote destinations.

[Capt Claret]

Unless payload restricted it's my policy to always have alternate fuel. If Wx or TFC holding is required, then when able I carry said holding plus an alternate.

As a wise former colleague said to me once,

"if it's your policy to go every where on minimum legal fuel, then statistically, you're likely to get caught out having to divert with insufficient fuel, when Bloggs goes splatt on the runway as you're on short final.

If it's your policy to carry alternate fuel whenever able, then statistically, the chance of the day you're required to divert because the bloke in front has gone splatt on the RWY being the same day you couldn't carry alternate fuel, i really, REALLY, remote."

Wise man.

[Jabawocky]

"if it's your policy to go every where on minimum legal fuel, then statistically, you're likely to get caught out having to divert with insufficient fuel, when Bloggs goes splatt on the runway as you're on short final.

I see you have flown with Bloggs before