Alternates & TEMPO Thunderstorms

[Capt Claret]

Originally Posted by Jabawocky

I see you have flown with Bloggs before

He done tort me on the 14Sux, he done did.

Can't remember if he tort me all he knew, or all I know?

[mach.865]

Alternates & TEMPO

Gentlemen
The second question is interesting, newifr was asking what the LEGAL requirement was for having the extra fuel when AFTER departure a TEMPO was issued. I know for a fact that a senior "checkie" from J* diverted to Sydney when en-route from Brisbane to Melbourne and abeam Wagga when a new TAF was issued stating TEMPO lowish cloud because he felt it was a legal requirement to have that fuel on board.
As for opinions given, nobody I know flies around with minimum fuel by choice. Most overseas airlines outside Oz always carry an Alternate with 30 mins holding at the alternate regardless of the destination weather. However it is not a practice to carry extra fuel for mum and the boys just in case and in most airlines it would not be tolerated, extra fuel has to be justified. So getting back to the question, what is the LEGAL requirement to have the fuel on board when the TEMPO was issued after departure. Good question for the the IREX exam.

[compressor stall]

because he felt it was a legal requirement to have that fuel on board.

Which bit of "legal" was he referring to - CASA regs or J* Ops manual? For a J* pilot, both are "the law".

Most overseas airlines outside Oz always carry an Alternate with 30 mins holding at the alternate regardless of the destination weather.... and in most [Australian] airlines it would not be tolerated, extra fuel has to be justified.

And it will take a 737/A320 in the water or in a forest after running out of gas when the weather turns or an aircraft landing ahead has a collapsed gear closing the runway before this rule is changed.

[tinpis]

And when you plan for that 30year old B200 with a wx radar that has never worked do you inform the boss youre not going because of imbedded t/s in the forcast?

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Paddys Law.....

MURPHY WAS AN OPTIMIST!

[T28D]

You can never carry too much fuel !!

[nomorecatering]

So how do airlines in Europe, or the US for that matter, cope when they get those massive winter systems, that have blizzards spanning all of western Europe. yes you can get in on an ILS, but what do you do when everywhere requires an alternate.

[Artificial Horizon]

Yes but alternates in Europe are not the same as alternates here. I worked for a legacy carrier over there and the only requirement was that you had two useable runways available within 2 hours flying time (the two runways could be actually be at the same airport as long as they were seperate e.g. parallel runways and not crossing). The runway was useable if the weather there was forecast at or above your second choice approach i.e. If you were CAT III (LVP) you needed CAT I weather, if you were only CAT I capable then you needed the weather to make a Non Precision approach etc. So there were times when we departed LHR and the destination was BKN002 150m FG, this didn't need alternate fuel to be carried as we were CAT III capable at NO DH and 75m RVR.

[mcgrath50]

AH is that a special rule for each operator over there or built into the regs in Europe?

[frangatang]

AI you must have been a flat earther (flight time less than 5 hrs not req an alt etc??). We long haulers always have an alternate!

[redsnail]

That is the regs in Europe.
We're Cat 1 capable only - so we carry an alternate with non precision minima.

[LeadSled]

AI you must have been a flat earther (flight time less than 5 hrs not req an alt etc??). We long haulers always have an alternate!

Maybe, if you are an FAA Part 121 carrier, or from somewhere that follows the FAA rules, but even the FAA OPS.SPEC for foreign carriers operating into US territory will not necessarily require a long haul operation to carry an alternate.

And for those of you not familiar, the FAA "no alternate required" alternate weather criteria is a lot higher than normal alternate criteria, effectively something close to 1000' cloud base/1mile+ viz/+/_ 60min. of ETA.

Tootle pip!!

[j3pipercub]

AI you must have been a flat earther

Wow, you (sh)longhaulers must be awesome!!!

j3

[DUXNUTZ]

And for those of you not familiar, the FAA "no alternate required" alternate weather criteria is a lot higher than normal alternate criteria, effectively something close to 1000' cloud base/1mile+ viz/+/_ 60min. of ETA.

Yup, 1500ft above lowest circling MDA + 2SM added to vis or 2000ft and 3SM whichever is greater. Lots easier than our rules here!

Alternate Wx requirement we had in our Opspecs were Wx better than

Ceilings 200ft, 1/2 mile or 400ft, 1 mile when added to forecast weather depending on if more than one approach to separate, instrument rwys.

Also enjoy the min visibility for takeoff of 1/4 mile by just adequate visual reference.

Another interesting point is in the USA you can do a kind of visual approach to an airport if the prevailing visibility is too low for an instrument approach (think NDB) where it's higher than 1SM. You can legally request a "contact approach", remain visual and land in a situation where you can't legally conduct an instrument approach. Odd huh?