How long is Australian CPL vailid for?

[jecuk]

This is a very useful thread for me too as it may save me from having to do all the UK PPL exams. If my licence and aircraft rating is valid I only have to do 2 exams. Will follow up.

[Oktas8]

Couple of extra points, now that circumstances are specific:

Many countries allow pilots to exercise the privileges of a foreign license. Some require checkrides & law exams, some don't. All require the foreign license to be current & valid.

Lilyflyboy, jecuk, millonario: In general and for most countries, current and valid means the following:
- Valid license & valid class/type rating (meaningless for Australian & NZ qualifications which are mostly lifetime);
- Current medical (of whatever class required);
- Current ability to exercise the privileges of PIC (means current AFR for Australia, current BFR for NZ for example, satisfactory recency for IR etc);
- No conditions or suspensions affecting your ability to exercise privileges.

Millonario, have you considered simply flying PIC as a student? Do a checkride with an aero club and do 18 hours' worth of solo flying on a Swedish medical under Swedish student pilot regulations.

[Cravenmorehead]

Hey unhinged I really like your style. I think I had an instructor like you when I did my PPL and boy did I learn a lot. Yes no one can spell these days.
Craven

[jecuk]

Couple of extra points, now that circumstances are specific:

Lilyflyboy, jecuk, millonario: In general and for most countries, current and valid means the following:
- Valid license & valid class/type rating (meaningless for Australian & NZ qualifications which are mostly lifetime);
- Current medical (of whatever class required);
- Current ability to exercise the privileges of PIC (means current AFR for Australia, current BFR for NZ for example, satisfactory recency for IR etc);
- No conditions or suspensions affecting your ability to exercise privileges.

Agreed, however specifically to do a JAA conversion of a PPL, whether you have to do all 7 exams or just 2 depends on whether you have held in the last 5 years a valid licence and type rating in a ICAO country. The key issue there is whether my type rating is valid - not whether I can exercise the privileges (which I can't).

[Aussie Bob]

With regards to a flight review Make it Happen Captain writes the following

Please note, the approved instructor MUST be operating under an AOC to exercise this privilege.

But the regs also state the following:

(c) satisfactorily completed aeroplane conversion training given by the holder of a grade of flight instructor (aeroplane) rating that authorises him or her to conduct aeroplane flight reviews;

With a grade 1 instructor rating aeroplane conversion training can be undertaken without an AOC. IMHO this still counts as a flight review.

Whether a grade 1 instructor needs to operate under an AOC when doing a AFR is a bit of a grey area. The CAAP certainly doesn't state that an AOC is necessary (I know CAAP is not law) and in fact I have had this argument with a FOI who couldn't catagorically state that an AOC was a requirement for the conduct of flight reviews ....

Perhaps Unhinged (and others) might venture an opinion on this ...

[172driver]

caution - thread drift

Agreed, however specifically to do a JAA conversion of a PPL, whether you have to do all 7 exams or just 2 depends on whether you have held in the last 5 years a valid licence and type rating in a ICAO country. The key issue there is whether my type rating is valid - not whether I can exercise the privileges (which I can't).

JECUK you are confusing TYPE rating with CLASS rating. A type rating is required for things like B737s, a class rating, which is likely what you mean, is, e.g. SEP(L), i.e. single engine piston (land); IOW needed to fly Cessnas, Pipers, etc.

If you wish to convert your ICAO PPL license to a UK issued JAR PPL license by sitting two exams (air law and human factors), you need to satisfy several experience requirements, LASORS refers (IIRC 100 or 150 hours PIC, x-country time, etc). You will also need a valid JAR/CAA medical.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Aussie Bob.

This is definitely not a grey area.

CASA has previously suspended privileges of pilots who had AFR's and HFR's conducted by Grade 1 instructors operating outside AOC approval. Not the pilot's fault, but the instructors concerned have and are being prosecuted.

THE INSTRUCTOR MUST BE OPERATING UNDER A VALID AOC WITH THE APPROVAL OF THE CFI AND HAVE A CURRENT S&P CHECK WITH THAT ORGANISATION!

Will find a reference, but call an FOI and ask if you don't believe me.

Ps. The CAAP most certainly does specify this without confusion. Para 6.5.

[millonario]

Millonario, have you considered simply flying PIC as a student? Do a checkride with an aero club and do 18 hours' worth of solo flying on a Swedish medical under Swedish student pilot regulations.

Oktas8, good point. It's just that I have been told by the authorities here that I have two options:

a) Validating my current Australian license in Sweden and be allowed to fly with it for 12 months.

b) Obtain a JAR PPL (sit 2 theory exams + checkride).

I will however inquire about flying solo with a student license. Conditions here might be different than in Australia (no such thing as GFPT here).

[Aussie Bob]

Captain: There is really no need to scream your lungs out on this forum. Like others have stated, all that is needed was the pointer to the reference which I have now looked up again. I make no apoloigies for being a bit rule rusty. Ta for the reply.

Take it easy mate!

[T28D]

Seems lots of folk here becoming Unhinged, giving a really staid and uncontroversial subject a trashing in this sandpit.

Really sad

[jecuk]

JECUK you are confusing TYPE rating with CLASS rating. A type rating is required for things like B737s, a class rating, which is likely what you mean, is, e.g. SEP(L), i.e. single engine piston (land); IOW needed to fly Cessnas, Pipers, etc.

If you wish to convert your ICAO PPL license to a UK issued JAR PPL license by sitting two exams (air law and human factors), you need to satisfy several experience requirements, LASORS refers (IIRC 100 or 150 hours PIC, x-country time, etc). You will also need a valid JAR/CAA medical.

Understood, I was referring (badly!) to the Credits section of LASORS C1.3 where it says if no valid aeroplane rating has been held for a period of 5 years then all exams must be completed.

My take is that for an Australian licence, if the licence has not been taken away, its aeroplane rating is always valid.

[T28D]

Jecuk My take is that for an Australian licence, if the licence has not been taken away, its aeroplane rating is always valid. YES TRUE

[Oktas8]

It is sometimes difficult to translate legalese from one regulatory environment to another, despite both using English.

In terms of interpreting LASORS, I suggest to you Jecuk that an Australian aircraft rating is not valid if the underlying license is out of currency due to the AFR requirement. This is because, in Australia, you could not exercise the privileges of your rating if you had no AFR-currency on your license. If you cannot exercise the privileges of a rating in your home country, you cannot claim it is valid in another country.

So the question is: within the past five years, could you at any time have legally conducted a flight in Australia in a SEP (Land) aeroplane, using your CASA PPL? (Ignoring the requirement for a CASA medical.) If yes, then you're in the clear. If no...

This is just one interpretation. But it's the opinion I have offered in the past, on LASORS C1.3 and similar sections, as a UK examiner myself.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Aussie Bob,

Not having a go at you at all personally, I just feel that it is important people are aware of this requirement as I know of several cases (both rotary and fixed wing) recently where pilots have had their licence suspended because the instructor was operating illegally.
Admittedly, it would difficult to ascertain if the instructor was intentionally flouting the rules (and I have seen it several times), but it may save a major inconvenience or even a denied insurance claim if they (pilots or instructors) are aware of this requirement.
We all know how insurance companies will use any excuse to deny a claim and a legally non-reviewed pilot would be perfect for them.

[Aussie Bob]

No problems, Captain. The grey area I now see is that conversion training is counted as a AFR. Conversion training can be done without an AOC. So someone legally gets say a tailwheel endo as a private op then goes away thinking they have also done a FR. It would seem that conversion training can only sometimes substitute for an AFR. This may not always be explained at the time ...

[jecuk]

Oktas8, thanks for your views. I think the strict interpretation is genuinely unclear maybe it would be better if it was written in terms of being able to exercise privileges.

However ultimately, the CAA's view is what matters and I suspect they will agree with you.

[Tankengine]

Aussie Bob, the fact that a conversion MAY satisfy a FR does not mean it WILL.
That would be up to the instructor [who would need to be operating under an AOC]

[Aussie Bob]

There is no may about it Tankengine, PROVIDED you hold a CPL or higher, YOU can count conversion training as a AFR. This training can be done without an AOC. As I read it, it counts as a flight review (for CPL or higher) even if it is not endorsed as such.

The regs are printed earlier in this thread.

[Tankengine]

AussieBob,
As you said, the reg is listed earlier:


"(4) If a commercial (aeroplane) pilot satisfactorily completes an aeroplane flight review, the person conducting the review must make an entry in the pilot’s personal log book to the effect that the pilot has satisfactorily completed the aeroplane flight review."

and

"(c) satisfactorily completed aeroplane conversion training given by the holder of a grade of flight instructor (aeroplane) rating that authorises him or her to conduct aeroplane flight reviews;

is taken to have satisfactorily completed an aeroplane flight review.

Note Conversion training given by a person who does not hold a flight instructor (aeroplane) rating must not be substituted for a flight review.

(6) For the purposes of paragraph (5) (b), a commercial (aeroplane) pilot is not taken to have satisfactorily completed an aeroplane proficiency check unless the organisation that conducted the check has made an entry in the pilot’s personal log book to that effect."

In other words, it is up to the instructor and their "organisation"

When you do your tailwheel endorsement be sure your logbook is endorsed for an AFR!
I do not see your "grey area" [and I was once a grade 1 etc etc]

[Aussie Bob]

Tankengine you have failed to read (5) paragraph (c)

And I am not meaning to get into an argument here, I think this thread and the participants are providing worthwhile info. I appreciate your interest.

IMHO this is just another reg that has grey areas in it. My guess is that a CPL who claimed his tailwheel endo as an AFR would be legally correct. But I stress this is just my guess.