Maitland, NSW (YMND) -multi eng aircraft departures 26
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Maitland, NSW (YMND) -multi eng aircraft departures 26
Question on Maitland aerodrome NSW. Heard a twin taxiing for departure runway 26 with 20 knot headwind. Local instructor pipes up on radio and says "Twin engine aircraft departures prohibited on 26 due gradient"
Reference to ERSA reveals no published prohibition for twins on 26. There is mention of a climb (obstacle?) gradient in excess of 8% though. The question arises of twin or even single engine climb performance in this case especially as a typical light twin such as Chieftain/ PA 44 etc are only required to meet a minimum one-engine inop gradient at 5000 ft ISA of one percent (I think).
If the twin is departing VMC and can avoid the obstacle visually then why would departures for twins on 26 at Maitland be prohibited any more than a single engine Cessna 172 would be prohibited? Is this the local instructors personal point of view at Maitland or is it published somewhere in AIP or any other official document?
Reference to ERSA reveals no published prohibition for twins on 26. There is mention of a climb (obstacle?) gradient in excess of 8% though. The question arises of twin or even single engine climb performance in this case especially as a typical light twin such as Chieftain/ PA 44 etc are only required to meet a minimum one-engine inop gradient at 5000 ft ISA of one percent (I think).
If the twin is departing VMC and can avoid the obstacle visually then why would departures for twins on 26 at Maitland be prohibited any more than a single engine Cessna 172 would be prohibited? Is this the local instructors personal point of view at Maitland or is it published somewhere in AIP or any other official document?
A steep gradient in itself does not "prohibit" departures from a particular runway. Just take a look at the RW19 SID's out of YBBN, particularly via CORAL.
What is required is an acknowledgement of the obstacles and a contingency plan to deal with them (aka special OEI procedure). Each operator deals with this in a different way, so don't expect ATC to know what you will do in the event of EFATO.
In any case, a departure in VMC by day is not an issue, as obstacles can be seen and avoided.
What is required is an acknowledgement of the obstacles and a contingency plan to deal with them (aka special OEI procedure). Each operator deals with this in a different way, so don't expect ATC to know what you will do in the event of EFATO.
In any case, a departure in VMC by day is not an issue, as obstacles can be seen and avoided.
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Local instructor pipes up on radio and says "Twin engine aircraft departures prohibited on 26 due gradient"
This is a common syndrome amongst flying instructors, with symptoms usually starting once they become a Grade 2 and become worse with further seniority. Like a teenager, they think they know it all because they now have some knowledge about how the world works. Usually gone by the time they become a Grade 1 though because, with maturity, they recognise it's none of their frecken business how others operate their aircraft.
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I experienced similar traffic-cop syndrome at Shepparton once.
Due to traffic on the radio I was unable to call for a straight-in at 10, 5, 3, & 1 or whatever it was at the time, so I think it was 8, 4 & 1. He informed me as I taxiied in that the correct procedure was 10, 5, 3 & 1. I thanked "Shepparton Air Traffic Control" for his unwanted advice but strangely didn't hear any more from him.
Due to traffic on the radio I was unable to call for a straight-in at 10, 5, 3, & 1 or whatever it was at the time, so I think it was 8, 4 & 1. He informed me as I taxiied in that the correct procedure was 10, 5, 3 & 1. I thanked "Shepparton Air Traffic Control" for his unwanted advice but strangely didn't hear any more from him.
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yes, there are quite a few local CFI Aerodrome cops around lately, YWOL has its fair share, all in relation to using runway 08, ERSA stated 08 not to be used for circuit training, thats all, so when the wind is 15-20 kts down 08, im going to use it if im not doing circuits. yet for some reason a local CFI takes "circuit operations not to be conducted on 08" as "no one shal use 08" and i will tell them it's so... 
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Ymnd
Hehe probably guess whos the ad coppa there
All jokes aside 26 isn't all that long , hump in the middle and rising terrain including locals/houses underneath ya, done some sweating in the tiger or a heavy archer myself at times
If it was me I think I'd go 23 and take the crosswind and be thankfull for the empty paddocks over the road rather than the ****fight that lies to the west
All jokes aside 26 isn't all that long , hump in the middle and rising terrain including locals/houses underneath ya, done some sweating in the tiger or a heavy archer myself at times
If it was me I think I'd go 23 and take the crosswind and be thankfull for the empty paddocks over the road rather than the ****fight that lies to the west
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Used to fly a nomad out of there many moons ago,.... company procedure was not to use 26 for t/o,.......anyway this day it was blowing about 40kt straight down 26,....methinks stufit i'll use 26 , reached 500' and turned for SY before end of rwy.
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I've done a bit out of YMND and 26 is 2674' or 815m and yes it does have a nice little speed hump where it crosses 23/05 and a hill with houses off to your left on dep.
I could understand how it could become interesting one out
I could understand how it could become interesting one out
Last edited by belly tank; 23rd Oct 2011 at 19:39.
If it was the CFI I doubt very much he was being an officious pompous pr!ck... More likely he was trying to avoid someone having greater embarrassment later.
Having the courage, knowledge and fortitude to speak up before someone hurts themselves ( or others) is the mark of a good airman, IMHO.
Having the courage, knowledge and fortitude to speak up before someone hurts themselves ( or others) is the mark of a good airman, IMHO.
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Horatio
Having the courage, knowledge and fortitude to speak up before someone hurts themselves ( or others) is the mark of a good airman, IMHO.
Not just 'airman' but also anyone involved in the game...
got tapped on the shoulder by a LAME once, that made me take a step back and reconsider what i was doing. Positive result.
I learnt more in a 2 minute conversation than i could have in 100 hours of flying.
nuff said
Safety is the responsibility of everyone in aviation, from the bloke that empties the onboard 'facility' to the CEO.
Don't see anyone calling him those names here
...however, like you I think (?) I have a small insight into the delights of Aero Club politics and I know he, like GF, has been taken for granted wrt their skills and approvals.
Guys with these qualifications don't grow on trees, yet Unis and Aero Clubs are happy to give them the spear and then wonder why everything falls apart
