Pilots embarassing themselves on SMH
Anthill, sorry, your post is another example of pilots embarassing themselves, this time on pprune. Should we cue the violin strings for you?
Your comments are exactly why many pilots have little time for the QF skygods. Sorry bud, but your description of 24/7/365, health, lifestyle etc. matches that of pretty much every other professional pilot. You're nothing special.
I don't want to see your jobs, or any Aussie jobs, go overseas. But don't pretend for one minute that you are all being paid market rates, or not overpaid. If I, like many other pilots, have these views, no wonder your typical Sunrise bogan latches on to every story about pilot pay rates with disgust.
Also, is a QF second officer worth more per annum than a QLink captain? I think not. For those pilots who will argue they worked hard to get into their high paying QF gig, you have not done anything different to the boys and girls earning considerably less at Virgin, Jetstar, Skywest etc etc. You're not blessed with an uncanny ability to pilot an aircraft, the only difference is the time you started your aviation career. Unfortunately long gone are the days of being able to pay pilots big bucks. Blame whoever you want, the Labour party, globalisation, the internet, the Chinese, but it's 2011. Wake up and smell the coffee. Adapt or you'll perish.
Please don't pretend you're better, or harder done by, than everyone else.
Your comments are exactly why many pilots have little time for the QF skygods. Sorry bud, but your description of 24/7/365, health, lifestyle etc. matches that of pretty much every other professional pilot. You're nothing special.
I don't want to see your jobs, or any Aussie jobs, go overseas. But don't pretend for one minute that you are all being paid market rates, or not overpaid. If I, like many other pilots, have these views, no wonder your typical Sunrise bogan latches on to every story about pilot pay rates with disgust.
Also, is a QF second officer worth more per annum than a QLink captain? I think not. For those pilots who will argue they worked hard to get into their high paying QF gig, you have not done anything different to the boys and girls earning considerably less at Virgin, Jetstar, Skywest etc etc. You're not blessed with an uncanny ability to pilot an aircraft, the only difference is the time you started your aviation career. Unfortunately long gone are the days of being able to pay pilots big bucks. Blame whoever you want, the Labour party, globalisation, the internet, the Chinese, but it's 2011. Wake up and smell the coffee. Adapt or you'll perish.
Please don't pretend you're better, or harder done by, than everyone else.
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I think if you got good T&Cs, fight it all the way to try and keep it... Your only worth as much as the employer will pay you... Go for it and try maintain the good conditions... once they go, there gone. 
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FTS-- I don't work for Qantas. I work for the other crowd
If you really are a Pilot, then wtf are you doing argueing for lower wages??
Yep, done my time in regionals and overseas. Never paid for a type rating either. If you are a Pilot then you are perhaps a little bit ignorant of the demands on home-life that long-haul entails. Regional and domestic flying doesn't screw with you home life like flying to the other side of the planet does.
Sure, a DH8 or F50 pilot flies in and out of the crap. A QF SO is miles from home when there is an home emergency. Ever been 6500 NM from home and had to deal with the fact that your son was admitted to hospital in a critical condition 2 hours after you took off? Only discovering this fact after you reached the hotel? Or that one of your in-laws passed away and that there is no way that you can comfort your wife for another 48 hours?
Domestic or regional drivers can be home in an emergency in a few short hours. The stuffing around that QF LH get deserves recompence for being screwed around. Sure, your DH8 captain works hard for their money but a salary should also have a 'stuff-around' component as well.
I am disappointed to have to explain this to you but clearly, you just have no idea
.
If you really are a Pilot, then wtf are you doing argueing for lower wages??
Yep, done my time in regionals and overseas. Never paid for a type rating either. If you are a Pilot then you are perhaps a little bit ignorant of the demands on home-life that long-haul entails. Regional and domestic flying doesn't screw with you home life like flying to the other side of the planet does.
Sure, a DH8 or F50 pilot flies in and out of the crap. A QF SO is miles from home when there is an home emergency. Ever been 6500 NM from home and had to deal with the fact that your son was admitted to hospital in a critical condition 2 hours after you took off? Only discovering this fact after you reached the hotel? Or that one of your in-laws passed away and that there is no way that you can comfort your wife for another 48 hours?
Domestic or regional drivers can be home in an emergency in a few short hours. The stuffing around that QF LH get deserves recompence for being screwed around. Sure, your DH8 captain works hard for their money but a salary should also have a 'stuff-around' component as well.
I am disappointed to have to explain this to you but clearly, you just have no idea
.
My argument has never been for lower wages and you know that. It's for certain pilots to turn it down a notch - they're not as important as they think they are. If you work for the other mob then my gripe isn't with you.
Back to the earlier posts, the comparisons PM pay are irrelevant. A number of measures were taken a long time ago to keep politician salaries low, and conditions in general, low. If it was private sector, Gil-liar would be on significantly more given the size of her organisation. Whether she's worth any of it is a different matter. Must have been a slow news day when they published that article.
Back to the earlier posts, the comparisons PM pay are irrelevant. A number of measures were taken a long time ago to keep politician salaries low, and conditions in general, low. If it was private sector, Gil-liar would be on significantly more given the size of her organisation. Whether she's worth any of it is a different matter. Must have been a slow news day when they published that article.
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Dart,
“Because you get what you NEGOTIATE!”
True, to some extent, although such a view is an admission that you don’t “get what you are worth”.
But in your case, unless you have served QF for about 50 years then you are getting largely what you inherited.
The weak senior management at QF is responsible for accommodating the ransom demands of the pilot group for years.
But now it appears that there is a new sheriff in town.
Anthill,
Great sob story. But ALL of those issues apply to the opposition as well. It’s the nature of the job; these lifestyle impacts are not unique to QF.
“Because you get what you NEGOTIATE!”
True, to some extent, although such a view is an admission that you don’t “get what you are worth”.
But in your case, unless you have served QF for about 50 years then you are getting largely what you inherited.
The weak senior management at QF is responsible for accommodating the ransom demands of the pilot group for years.
But now it appears that there is a new sheriff in town.
Anthill,
Great sob story. But ALL of those issues apply to the opposition as well. It’s the nature of the job; these lifestyle impacts are not unique to QF.
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An interesting take on why the big difference between in pay new hires and captains at airlines: Unions and Airlines
Money quote:
Hey, if you can negotiate it, good on ya! But don't come bitchin' to me if the airline can't afford you anymore, you are unwilling to budge and get made redundant...
One question for Anthill, though: if the "available 24/7/365", missing birthdays, recitals, christmas and anniversaries and effects on health of long haul travel, then why are the hosties not on 6 figures+?
Money quote:
The answer is to look at who controls the pilot's union: very senior pilots. The airline management is mostly interested in what percentage of its revenues are paid out to pilots; the distribution of the money among the pilots does not affect profitability. The very senior pilots on the other side of the table say "We need the most senior pilots to get $300,000 in pay and benefits." The airline's response is "The only way that could work is if we pay the new pilots $16,000 per year." The group of senior pilots responds "We can live with that."
One question for Anthill, though: if the "available 24/7/365", missing birthdays, recitals, christmas and anniversaries and effects on health of long haul travel, then why are the hosties not on 6 figures+?
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One question for Anthill, though: if the "available 24/7/365", missing birthdays, recitals, christmas and anniversaries and effects on health of long haul travel, then why are the hosties not on 6 figures+?
I am not going to get in the pay arguments but I agree for me anyway longhaul sucks, you feel crappy and it really stuffs around your life outside work. But for some others they dont mind it. I did it for a bit but am much happier in regional/domestic. Being away from home about 15-17 days a month wears thin after a while.
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then why are the hosties not on 6 figures+?
Lol some of them Are!
Lol some of them Are!
A QF SO is miles from home when there is an home emergency. Ever been 6500 NM from home and had to deal with the fact that your son was admitted to hospital in a critical condition 2 hours after you took off? Only discovering this fact after you reached the hotel? Or that one of your in-laws passed away and that there is no way that you can comfort your wife for another 48 hours?
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Baswell, I agree that Hosties should get renumerated for being absent from home for much of their career. In the past, this was the case. Recent contacts are eroding this. I understand that there exists a profound difference in pay for CC in QF. Why this occurs is that the companies have managed to find CC who will do it for less-and often based in other countries.
You have also hit the nail on the head with your assessment
as to who is responsible for the decline pay for pilots. The first B scales were introduced during the late 60's early 70's. The companies that kicked this practice off were United and American. The interesting part was that many employee groups voted up the B scale for new hires, not just pilots.
It will be interesting to see what 'demographic' wins in the forthcoming Virgin Australia Short Haul EBA. Already some are rationalising that "there must be winners and losers in the EBA process". How can there ever be industrial solidarity if there are those who have a blatant win over others who lose?
Psalms ancient and modern, really.
You have also hit the nail on the head with your assessment
as to who is responsible for the decline pay for pilots. The first B scales were introduced during the late 60's early 70's. The companies that kicked this practice off were United and American. The interesting part was that many employee groups voted up the B scale for new hires, not just pilots.
It will be interesting to see what 'demographic' wins in the forthcoming Virgin Australia Short Haul EBA. Already some are rationalising that "there must be winners and losers in the EBA process". How can there ever be industrial solidarity if there are those who have a blatant win over others who lose?
Psalms ancient and modern, really.
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If that was the case then anyone who is away from home with their job could argue the same point.Everyone from truck drivers to sales reps would be putting in a pay claim.
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I guess the issue is: there are a lot of people making a lot of money at Qantas and it is alleged that is not sustainable.
Arguments about how this is in line with tiny number of foreign carriers that receive way too much financial support from their governments are not realistic.
Making up stuff about how much safer QF is than anyone else when there is no statistically significant difference in past performance (which is not a guide for the future anyhow) also doesn't help with being taken seriously; it is clutching at straws.
I think QF can do a lot more to try and be more profitable, but you can't deny staff renumeration needs to be looked at. Half a million for a day job that also comes with great security and generous pension is a lot of money.
Qantas should be able to keep basing its operations out of Australia, but at some point, something's got to give and if foreign competition is willing to work for less, you are better off taking, say, 75% of what you have now instead of holding on to 100% of what will become nothing...
And please divide $5M by 33,000 employees before making any irrelevant comment about CEO salary.
Arguments about how this is in line with tiny number of foreign carriers that receive way too much financial support from their governments are not realistic.
Making up stuff about how much safer QF is than anyone else when there is no statistically significant difference in past performance (which is not a guide for the future anyhow) also doesn't help with being taken seriously; it is clutching at straws.
I think QF can do a lot more to try and be more profitable, but you can't deny staff renumeration needs to be looked at. Half a million for a day job that also comes with great security and generous pension is a lot of money.
Qantas should be able to keep basing its operations out of Australia, but at some point, something's got to give and if foreign competition is willing to work for less, you are better off taking, say, 75% of what you have now instead of holding on to 100% of what will become nothing...
And please divide $5M by 33,000 employees before making any irrelevant comment about CEO salary.
If nobody ever left except through death or retirement, and there were plenty of suitable applicants for every available position, then it could be argued by management that the terms and conditions were too generous.
Similarly if people left as soon as another job became available, and there was a shortage of suitable applicants, then it could be argued by the unions that the terms and conditions weren't good enough.
A certain amount of turnover is good, leading to quicker promotion into higher paying grades. The problem for QANTAS is that there are no other major international airlines in Australia with comparable terms and conditions for pilots. Executives may move on to Telcos/Banks/Mining/Retail/Government etc and employers in these fields can bench mark against what similar jobs pay.
A QF 744 Captain looking to move on is going to have to go abroad and unless he is prepared to go back in the right hand seat, is looking at contract work or a less desirable employer/location. So why move if he can't become a BA or United Airlines skipper ?
This makes terms and conditions difficult to set. Domestically the competition is only Virgin who are drawing from the same pool of applicants with similar expectations. Virgin pay less but time to upgrade is quicker, direct entry F/O vs five years in the jump seat.
Internationally things are different with the likes of SQ and EK having far greater control of their costs by being able to source staff world wide and little if any union presence. A checkout operator in Woolworth is comparable to one in Coles as both companies can only employ locals, unfortunately an Australian textile worker is comparable to one in China or Indonesia therefore there is no more local textile industry.
Assuming the top figure quoted in the media of $536,221 is for the Chief Pilot, this amount wouldn't get many similar level managers in other industries with comparable years of experience/responsibility and skill interested. He may very well be underpaid.
Even the low figure of $126,313 for an A330 S/O is about what a dump truck driver on the mines makes.
It's going to be very difficult to pay the pilots what they are worth and remain competitive now that the airline has been run into the ground.
Similarly if people left as soon as another job became available, and there was a shortage of suitable applicants, then it could be argued by the unions that the terms and conditions weren't good enough.
A certain amount of turnover is good, leading to quicker promotion into higher paying grades. The problem for QANTAS is that there are no other major international airlines in Australia with comparable terms and conditions for pilots. Executives may move on to Telcos/Banks/Mining/Retail/Government etc and employers in these fields can bench mark against what similar jobs pay.
A QF 744 Captain looking to move on is going to have to go abroad and unless he is prepared to go back in the right hand seat, is looking at contract work or a less desirable employer/location. So why move if he can't become a BA or United Airlines skipper ?
This makes terms and conditions difficult to set. Domestically the competition is only Virgin who are drawing from the same pool of applicants with similar expectations. Virgin pay less but time to upgrade is quicker, direct entry F/O vs five years in the jump seat.
Internationally things are different with the likes of SQ and EK having far greater control of their costs by being able to source staff world wide and little if any union presence. A checkout operator in Woolworth is comparable to one in Coles as both companies can only employ locals, unfortunately an Australian textile worker is comparable to one in China or Indonesia therefore there is no more local textile industry.
Assuming the top figure quoted in the media of $536,221 is for the Chief Pilot, this amount wouldn't get many similar level managers in other industries with comparable years of experience/responsibility and skill interested. He may very well be underpaid.
Even the low figure of $126,313 for an A330 S/O is about what a dump truck driver on the mines makes.
It's going to be very difficult to pay the pilots what they are worth and remain competitive now that the airline has been run into the ground.
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Even the low figure of $126,313 for an A330 S/O is about what a dump truck driver on the mines makes.
So although people often make it, it is not a relevant comparison in my opinion.
At the same time, the SO salary isn't the problem either I don't think. By the time most get there these days, they have already paid their dues in the military (free training comes with a lot of **** to put up with) or flown the grey army around Lake Eyre after shelling out up to $100K of their own money to get to that stage. Plus they have to put up with the frustration of not actually flying an airplane for all those years they are SO!
It would be interesting to see just how many pilots in QF at which pay level.
