Ice Pilots NWT

[adsyj]

aviatorhi

Thanks for sharing your experience with FWA. I really enjoy the show both for the flying and the Alaska bits and pieces.

I admit I am loving all these Alaska shows, Crab Fishing, Alaska State Troopers I'm keen to get up there and have a look around.

JIm Tweeto seems like a pretty good fella are you inferring when you say he is proud of his crashes he is a bit of a cowboy? I get the impression that in order to achieve some of the off airfield missions he is tasked with he needs a bit of cowboy in him and I guess crashes come with the territory.

Anyway I realise it is TV and produced for the masses.

Feel free to wander down memory lane again, I find the whole thing fascinating.

Cheers

[aviatorhi]

I could tell you things I know to be facts and have experienced personally which would change your mind about that, but a public forum is not the place.

Being a cowboy is part of what bush flying is all about. Wrangling crosswinds and getting the job done is just part of the game, if it's not something you're comfortable with you probably won't enjoy that sort of flying, nothing wrong with that, there is a style of flying that is cut out for every pilot in the world (some people even enjoy multiple styles). I recall a new hire class that arrived on Sunday evening to begin class on Monday. Two of the guys were from the Lower 48 and had no idea what Alaska (much less rural Alaska) was all about, they left the next morning without saying a word when they (we suspect) realized what they had gotten into. As far as what I am referring to is that the good cowboys don't need to tell you how good they are and they sure don't bend airplanes. Those are the guys you'll hardly hear about, but are the ones I'd trust any day of the week in any situation.

There's also a bit of "controversy" at the entire organization they are running in relation to how the mergers between the 4 comapnies went through, certain people thing other certain people got the better end of the deal, and vice versa. Let's just say that the airline which Mr. Tweto runs is one of the 2 "surviving" certificates of the 5 that went in.

Really? I'd love to see the insurance payout after they run off the runway landing above Cessna's crosswind limit!!!

Again it's a demonstrated limit, I had the same attitude about that when I had still had wet ink on my commercial license, to the point of refusing to fly skydivers one day because the wind was calling 2 knots over the demonstrated limit. Alaska fixed that attitude in me really fast. While some may call this "pilot pushing" or similar things I won't, flying in Alaska affords you the most freedom of any flying job I can think of, you're in one of the wildest and most beautiful places in the world flying how you want. You or your passengers want to go animal spotting on the way somewhere? No problem. Want to take them the long way and go sight seeing? It's encouraged if you got the time. And finally, Captain's authority and decision making is only questioned in the most extreme cases, if you fly out somewhere, try an approach but decide it's too much wind for you, or your TLAR (that looks about right) system starts giving you a warning and you turn around for whatever reason at all it will not be a negative mark as it is in many other places.

Oh, and then there's the 2 week on 2 week of schedule (or in my case 1 month on 1 month off) starting on day 1, no need to climb the seniority ladder to have a good wage (207 wage starts at about 70K and up, with senior pilots making upwards of 6 figures flying a 7 seat airplane).

[nitpicker330]

I stand by the comment. Insurance companies dig very deep and long to find excuses not to pay up. An incident/accident that can be attributed to operating outside demonstrated limits would be a big red flag.

Good luck

[mcgrath50]

Hey aviatorhi, how hard is it for an Aussie to get immigration to go work in Alaska?

[404 Titan]

aviatorhi

Being a cowboy is part of what bush flying is all about. Wrangling crosswinds and getting the job done is just part of the game,

Again it's a demonstrated limit

Sorry mate but as nitpicker330 has said “Demonstrated Limit” is still an absolute limitation as far as the regulator and insurance companies are concerned. If you have an accident irrespective of whether the breach of the “Demonstrated Limit” was the cause of the accident or not, the insurance company will refuse to pay out and the regulator will eat you alive. Alaska isn’t immune to the mindset that the job must get done. This mindset was prevalent in Papua New Guinea when I was flying there. In over 10 years of bush flying in some of the most remote parts of Australia and Papua New Guinea I can say with a hand on my heart I never lowered my standards to the point that people could call me a cowboy. That’s not to say I didn’t pushed both myself and the aircraft I flew to the limits. I did but always kept commercial pressures where they rightly belonged, well down the list of priorities.

[aviatorhi]

Okay, we're shutting down Alaska because somebody doesn't want to fly past the demonstrated limit.

In the US demonstrated is just that, even the FAA (regulator) has no problem with it, and the insurance companies have rarely if ever questioned it. There's many a reason why airlines in the US use insurance markets instead of insurance brokers. This is likely one of them. Bottom line is this is something that appears to be a big deal in other parts of the world and isn't even worth mentioning in the US. Some people might call it "dangerous", but, day in and day out, reality proves otherwise.

Hey aviatorhi, how hard is it for an Aussie to get immigration to go work in Alaska?

The airline I work for now has one Aussie who's been here for quite a while, though I no longer work in Alaska. I do know there are many Scandinavians and a few Kiwis up there at the moment. Over on Saipan I've run into a few Kiwis and Aussies who fly the 7 minute shuttle to Tinian so I suppose it's a lot easier than going the other direction.

[adsyj]

Av

Just on the insurance issue raised by others, my mate that flys in the states tells me that Insurance Policies are custom built. In other words start from scratch and you shop the market for an insurer that will build a policy (after risk assesment etc) that is more suited to each individual operation. In other words rather than an off the shelf standard policy you purchase a policy negotiate with the insurer to cover the areas you have mentioned above. Is this what you mean by insurance markets.? I expect the premium would be rather nasty.

It is hard for us in Aust to comprehend that the regulator will understand the unique conditions in Alaska and deal with incidents accordingly. I take your point that air transport would shutdown for days on end if FAA enforced to the letter of the law. I don;t think this would negate total negligence but some sway is granted. Am I on the right track.? Company SOPs no matter would dictate day to day operations and surely no matter what certain minimas can't be bust. Am I understanding, it is all about keeping those remote outposts alive.

I did a bit of reasearch on the tweetos and I can see clearly your point about this being a vehicle for Ariel in particular to further her career outside of aviation. I notice she lives in Hollywood CA.

Alaska is so unique but I do notice on the programme they show plenty of wrecked aircraft. In your experience aircraft accidents in that neck of the woods could mainly attributable to what?

Still I would love to have a crack up there.

[Double Wasp]

Folks

Aviatorhi is completely correct in this whether you want to believe it or not. In North America when ever it says "Demonstrated" in the AFM this is not at limit. The only reason this number is there is because when building an aircraft Cessna for example must be able to prove that the aircraft meets certain minimum criterea put forward by the FAA for certification. Once this is accomplished there is no requirement to prove the acutual limit of a small aircraft and as such "Max Demonstrated" is noted in the POH.

In short in North America (not just Alaska):

Demonstrated = not a legal limit (This is the letter of the law).

If you don't believe me call the FAA.

Believe it or not there are other differences when flying in North America compared to Australia for example; no requirement for holding fuel when flying VFR while there is a Tempo that forecasts weather below alternate minima in the TAF. In fact VFR there has no alternate minima, because an alternate is not required for VFR, and is solely based on actual weather and the TAF does not legally apply any restrictions to VFR flight, you would be an idiot not to look at it though. I could go on.

The insurance companies, which I am sure very few of you here have actually dealt with especially American ones, are only concerned with legal liability. As long as the actions of those in question follow the letter of the law, which landing beyond the "demonstrated crosswind" includes, your insurance will cover.

In short before you slag someone for being wrong because it is different than what you do here, or Niugini, do some research.

Australia is the one that is different.

Cheers
DW

PS: I thought this thread was about Ice Pilots.

[MACH082]

Demonstated = demonstrated in Australia also.

Cross wind limit = crosswind limit.

Just remember though, once you do go over the max demonstrated crosswind, you are in test pilot territory.

If you do have a stack, you need to justify your decision to land in it.

It is surprising how many Pilots don't understand the difference.

I used to fly a Metro. It has a max demonstrated crosswind component of 20 knots as per the AFM. In the company ops manual it stated it as a limit. Therefore the ops manual was to be complied with.

In a previous company it was listed as demonstrated and I regularly landed in 30 knot crosswinds.

A high wing Cessna is a gem to land in big crosswinds. As long as it was a constant wind and not gusting, I'd have no problems attempting a 30 plus knot crosswind landing and have done many a times in various Cessnas and Airvans.

Take it easy out there!

[aviatorhi]

Is this what you mean by insurance markets?

Yes, as an example, Lloyds of London is commonly referred to as an insurance company (among other things), however they are in fact an insurance market. They function the same as far as the basics but can typically accept higher risk and/or an extremely high level of coverage due to how the financial backing is structures for the policy.

Demonstated = demonstrated in Australia also.

Cross wind limit = crosswind limit.

Agreed, no problems there, though to be able to fly in Alaska (or anywhere in the arctic where it gets windy for weeks on end) you need people who can work in those conditions.

I take your point that air transport would shutdown for days on end if FAA enforced to the letter of the law.

Am I on the right track?

As far as the winds are concerned it wouldn't apply there, reference the other statements about the subject. However, as with any airline you need to do a "weight and balance" prior to every flight... right? Well, that's all well and good, now lets say you're out there in the middle of "bum-****" nowhere with 40@-40 (40 knots wind, -40C (or F, they're the same at that temperature there), makes for a wind chill of -87C. Add to that some odd sized cargo/luggage (like a dead seal), 3 screaming babies, 5 adults etc. etc. etc., you've got a 50 pound pocket scale to weigh the luggage (gook luck with a spring working in that sort of cold) and take the pax weights verbally. So when a guy twice as wide as you shows up and tells you he weight 150 you smile and nod and take a good estimate on your own. Good luck if you want to do everything "by the book", you might succeed the first 2 times but you'll freeze to death by the 3rd. Knowing how to skirt around the gray areas is what it takes to keep yourself legal while doing the job as best as it can be done.

The problem I have with SOPs at any airline is they are great on a perfect day in a perfect airplane with perfect performance from all sides, they are also written in a warm and cozy office by somebody who is trying their best to appease the regulator while maintaining some level of semblance to the operation at hand. In most places and airports you will go to outside of bush flying there's no problem with that. However, the further you get from "civilization" the quicker everything starts to unravel. Then it's up to you, as the Captain, to get things done safely and efficiently.

Alaska is so unique but I do notice on the programme they show plenty of wrecked aircraft. In your experience aircraft accidents in that neck of the woods could mainly attributable to what?

Primarily attitudes and lack of common sense. It has decreased from what it was in the past, but the common attitude between pilots was "anything you can do I can do better". My philosophy has always been that if I'm assigned a flight (there or anywhere) I'll go try it, if I don't like what I see I'll turn right around and come on back. There are literally dozens of CFIT accidents that were entirely preventable. The recent midair collision which look place near Nelson island is an example of the attitudes and common sense issue. There's nothing wrong with flying an airplane near, at or (when you know what you're doing) past the official limit, however, when it turns into a competition of who can do what and/or you are out of your element and don't realize it, well, the consequences can get very deadly very fast.

PS: I thought this thread was about Ice Pilots.

I did too, came here looking for the download links, sorry for hijacking.

[VH-XXX]

Seems the FWA pilots aren't your average 200 hour CPL - they appear to have 1,500 to be pilot in command. Should have their landings worked out by 1500 hours you'd hope.

[aviatorhi]

C207 requires 500 hours of flight time to be PIC. FO on the 208 requires 250. To move into an IFR capable aircraft you are right though. Those requirements go for any operator in the US under 135.

[adsyj]

AV

Thanks mate for taking the time to answer

It's all about airmanship whether it is Alaska or Australia.

Sorry to hijack the thread. On topic I'd love to have a crack at those Buffalo Electras.

Cheers

[Dog One]

Interesting flying in Esp 2. Flying the C46 for three sectors with a big hole in the exhaust, and the fire warning going off. One would have thought that an investigation into the fire alarm by checking inside the cowl would have been prudent. It was only at night, when the crew saw flames inside the cowl that they finally decided to shut down the engine!

[jas24zzk]

Aviatri,
i doubt your comments are a thread hijack. More a positive side input that is experience based by someone whom has been there.

Love your responses to comments about the 2 shows.

[VH-XXX]

Like this one Jas?

There's nothing wrong with flying an airplane near, at or (when you know what you're doing) past the official limit

[aviatorhi]

Out over the tundra 50 miles from anywhere in a 207 at 1000 feet, wx is low, suddenly goes to zero and you're in icing, you're past the official limit... What you gonna do now? Land where you're at? Stop flying because you're past the limit?

Ideally you try to descend out of the icing (unless you definitively know how high the tops are, you don't have much spare climb performance with ice on the wings and 1300 lbs of payload), even though you may be going below the regulators minimum altitude, but the plane will fly low, it just won't fly with 3 inches of ice on the wings. Still past the limit, but safer than you were before.

You deal with things the best way you can, by learning and being capable of handling the airplane past the limit when it calls for it. If you consider my statements to be 'gems' then you should take a step back and realize that reality isn't written in any book or on any tv series.

[kingRB]

Season 2 info and a bit of a story on how the show came about....

'Flying Wild Alaska' season two debuts Friday, Oct. 28, starring Ariel, Jim and Ferno Tweto | Alaska Dispatch

[VH-XXX]

Episode 3 out now.

Ice Pilots NWT S03E03 Chuck Walks ZiLLA (download torrent) - TPB

(2 located here)

Ice Pilots NWT S03E02 Dambusters ZiLLA (download torrent) - TPB

[startingout]

Flying Wild Alaksa torrents are up as well.

Go below for the Standerd Def version, search on TPB for the 720p if you need it.
Flying.Wild.Alaska.S02E01.Arctic.Winds.HDTV.XviD-MOMENTUM (download torrent) - TPB