Hot Off the Press
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Hot Off the Press
A certain flying school at BK and with opps at CWR is at it again with underpaying instructors to the tune of $30 an hour, getting them in on 12 hour duty rosters and even I've heard having them pay a 'bond' for the privilege of 12 months of this 'employment'. It's about time they were put out of their misery... well not the owners who I'm sure are both very happy with the situation. Will anybody involved ever actually stand up?
Might increase peoples 'Wellness' if you know what I mean.
Might increase peoples 'Wellness' if you know what I mean.
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Well, they've had such a high turnover of instructors the past few years, obviously pilots are getting the idea quite quickly of what a mockery this place is. If only said school would go underwater already 
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I don't think they ever left did they? Talking to a few round the airport they're actually one of the busier schools - in no small part due to the prices being a fair bit lower than everybody else.... about the same amount per hour that they under pay the instructors infact! It's criminal that these people are taking business off the proper, well run, schools on the airport - especially the way they're doing it. Not to mention some of the more elaborate ways they've found to rorte the CPL students they have - but thats for another time.
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Surely said instructors would of agreed to the terms and conditions before signing on. Who is to blame there. People should take responsibilities for there own actions. If they were told one thing and got another well I can understand their frustration Maybe they thought well if I fly 30 hrs a week and earn 30 an hour that's 900pw. Sadly instructors start to moan and rightfully so that there ain't no 30 hours a week walking through the door. This I see is were the problem may lie.
As far as rorting cpl students I'd like to hear of those stories. Having did my ppl, nvfr, multi and cpl there I never thought once that I was being their cash cow. Most of the time the instructors felt I was ready for the various flight tests even though I felt "can we do another flight before the test". So I don't think they want to keep you flying more than what is needed to get to an acceptable level.
As far as rorting cpl students I'd like to hear of those stories. Having did my ppl, nvfr, multi and cpl there I never thought once that I was being their cash cow. Most of the time the instructors felt I was ready for the various flight tests even though I felt "can we do another flight before the test". So I don't think they want to keep you flying more than what is needed to get to an acceptable level.
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It's a fair comment that nobody has to agree to those conditions - but the fact is that they should never have to face the choice of them either. I understand that one, now former employee, has been talking to the ATO about it all and there is a case of what's known as 'sham contracting' going on there that's pretty serious, and they're looking to persue this - good luck to them, as if successful it will result in some compensation to anybody who's been held under this arrangement. That's not to mention the fragrant disregard for flight and duty time limits I've been hearing about - 12 hours a day, 6 days a week anybody?
As I understand the making use of the students as cash cows, they've taken to basically convincing all that the 150hr CPL course isn't the way to go and pushing all the CPL students to the 200hour course, for no benefit to the student whatsoever, but a nice extra 50 hours of flight time at least for them. I'm sure the general experience for the student is a good one - why would they want it to be anything else, customer retention is critical to any business - but the student should also ask if they want to be responsible for funding operations like this, especially a CPL student who is looking to break into the industry. Alas the dollar talks and $30 an hour saving can be significant (especially on a 200 hour course!).
As I understand the making use of the students as cash cows, they've taken to basically convincing all that the 150hr CPL course isn't the way to go and pushing all the CPL students to the 200hour course, for no benefit to the student whatsoever, but a nice extra 50 hours of flight time at least for them. I'm sure the general experience for the student is a good one - why would they want it to be anything else, customer retention is critical to any business - but the student should also ask if they want to be responsible for funding operations like this, especially a CPL student who is looking to break into the industry. Alas the dollar talks and $30 an hour saving can be significant (especially on a 200 hour course!).
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The students can always move!
For myself I found IFR instructors with LOTS of experience, they are not that hard to find.
Let us hope that this thread may influence some to at least investigate their own training.
For myself I found IFR instructors with LOTS of experience, they are not that hard to find.
Let us hope that this thread may influence some to at least investigate their own training.
the fragrant disregard
Tank,
Plenty of check & training approvals out there who don't exactly have the "temperament" (patience?) to instruct.
The instructing technique is something that is developed over time. It doesn't come fully ready with an FIR.
Prime example, many Gr 3's talk too much, don't let the student make their own mistakes. I know. I was one of them.
When a good technique is combined with extensive IFR experience, good result, but most (not all) Gr 3's seem to be fresh CPL's these days and are teaching from a textbook, not from experience. I know there are exceptions and the industry needs these guys passing their experience on, but I personally would love to see something similar to rotary; no Gr 3's and 400 hrs command required for a Gr 2.
Plenty of check & training approvals out there who don't exactly have the "temperament" (patience?) to instruct.
The instructing technique is something that is developed over time. It doesn't come fully ready with an FIR.
Prime example, many Gr 3's talk too much, don't let the student make their own mistakes. I know. I was one of them.
When a good technique is combined with extensive IFR experience, good result, but most (not all) Gr 3's seem to be fresh CPL's these days and are teaching from a textbook, not from experience. I know there are exceptions and the industry needs these guys passing their experience on, but I personally would love to see something similar to rotary; no Gr 3's and 400 hrs command required for a Gr 2.
Terrible title to this thread, means nothing & if anything misleading.
Also, please send a link to the story, Hot off the press indicating a media publication is involved.
Please name this school if you are spreading rumors.
I also suggest you use your real name in case it is not Trevor Dal, here is a lesson for you in the link below. My opligies in advance if it is your real name, I include this as a learning note to all.
Now, get back to opening up this flying school to the pitt bulls and spilling the beans on this if i is really true and by the way, no sympathy to the little maggots who accept the conditions for this school if they really are as described .
Apology to Dick Smith on PPRuNe
Also, please send a link to the story, Hot off the press indicating a media publication is involved.
Please name this school if you are spreading rumors.
I also suggest you use your real name in case it is not Trevor Dal, here is a lesson for you in the link below. My opligies in advance if it is your real name, I include this as a learning note to all.
Now, get back to opening up this flying school to the pitt bulls and spilling the beans on this if i is really true and by the way, no sympathy to the little maggots who accept the conditions for this school if they really are as described .
Apology to Dick Smith on PPRuNe
Last edited by Ejector; 13th Oct 2011 at 12:21.
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Ejector seems overly sensitive on this subject, after all, this is a rumour network and while the anonymity can mask vexatious attacks, it can also bring out the truth that might not have otherwise seen the light of day. The link to the Dick Smith apology is both a salient reminder to ensure that anonymity is not abused and a subtle threat to silence further comment.
On they subject of Flying Schools behaving badly, an ex-Bankstown CASA FOI recently told me about a Sydney based Flying School reported for some serious regulatory breaches involving operations outside of their AOC and the misuse of Special Flight Permits. He hinted that they were given a Voluntary Enforceable Undertaking as a result (but this could all be a rumour).
On they subject of Flying Schools behaving badly, an ex-Bankstown CASA FOI recently told me about a Sydney based Flying School reported for some serious regulatory breaches involving operations outside of their AOC and the misuse of Special Flight Permits. He hinted that they were given a Voluntary Enforceable Undertaking as a result (but this could all be a rumour).
Just a quick reply,
Firstly I do see how you may have interpreted some of my comments if looking at them in a particular context, I may not have been overly clear, this is true.
The link was not meant to be a "subtle threat to silence further comment".
I am all for you to bring light on the day if this anonymous school is really up to no good as it has been claimed, possibly anonymously. Those heavily involved probably know the code to identify them, but most do not.
I do stand by my opinion though, that if instructors knowing prostitute them selves to schools at there, they have no leg to stand on for claims and even less of a leg to stand on when it comes back and hits them in the face from people who did not prostitute them selves, breaking the law, conducting fraud by faking the numbers so they are contractors and work for below min wages. If these scum bags, just one of them, had the balls to have stood up, publicly to this anonymous flying school, non of you would have had an issue, they would have gone bust and the morely correct instructors would have more work getting paid the legal min wage at least.
Seems like there is some momentum though in the right direction now, maybe these instructors have learnt their lessons, open up this company fully and flesh them out.
Prior to making that post, I had just read a disgusting thread of a new flying school at YBAF, vicious rumors on prune about a particular unsavory individual owning it, which is simply not true.
I am not personally against you, not at all, but I ask why don't you get legal advice from your industry federation? Why are these employees (sorry contractors) cooking the numbers to benefit the employer, (sorry the fly school owner)
Firstly I do see how you may have interpreted some of my comments if looking at them in a particular context, I may not have been overly clear, this is true.
The link was not meant to be a "subtle threat to silence further comment".
I am all for you to bring light on the day if this anonymous school is really up to no good as it has been claimed, possibly anonymously. Those heavily involved probably know the code to identify them, but most do not.
I do stand by my opinion though, that if instructors knowing prostitute them selves to schools at there, they have no leg to stand on for claims and even less of a leg to stand on when it comes back and hits them in the face from people who did not prostitute them selves, breaking the law, conducting fraud by faking the numbers so they are contractors and work for below min wages. If these scum bags, just one of them, had the balls to have stood up, publicly to this anonymous flying school, non of you would have had an issue, they would have gone bust and the morely correct instructors would have more work getting paid the legal min wage at least.
Seems like there is some momentum though in the right direction now, maybe these instructors have learnt their lessons, open up this company fully and flesh them out.
Prior to making that post, I had just read a disgusting thread of a new flying school at YBAF, vicious rumors on prune about a particular unsavory individual owning it, which is simply not true.
I am not personally against you, not at all, but I ask why don't you get legal advice from your industry federation? Why are these employees (sorry contractors) cooking the numbers to benefit the employer, (sorry the fly school owner)
