2 dead in Vic NW of Melb at Wallup
Sad accident indeed.
Whilst the premise behind Angel Flight is noble, I have always maintained that EMS / medical transfer flights should be made only by contracted operators.
The pax have no idea what they are getting themselves into when they board and Angel Flight as opposed to a contracted operator.
Whilst the premise behind Angel Flight is noble, I have always maintained that EMS / medical transfer flights should be made only by contracted operators.
The pax have no idea what they are getting themselves into when they board and Angel Flight as opposed to a contracted operator.
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Impact damage looks to me like the pilot was not in control at the time
4/8 cloud seems the question as to whether it was a NVFR flight and LSALT seems to be the question whether it was an IFR flight or either.
One should consider all factors and ignore media speculation in cases such as this. The ABC this morning stated Angel Flight "chartered" the aircraft from the pilot???? Oh, (and weather could be a factor). Nobody mentioned "ageing aircraft" or the fact that it had no ballistic parachute or an on board entertainment system. It probably just disappeared from radar screens as is normal, or the pilot had no flight plan, or it wasn't a mercy flight because he was coming away from medical help.
God preserve the souls of the dead and insulate them and their loved ones from the repercussions that are bound to follow.
You may all like to reflect and offer a silent prayer for all the times you have got away with similar.
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For what it's worth, I departed Warracknabeal for Mildura at around 1610 yesterday. Began VFR but after take-off it soon became apparent that I wouldnt be able to maintain VMC at planned 4500 so chaged to IFR and entered IMC at around 3500, it became clear around 30NM north of YWKB and when I looked back to see how far it extended it was basically a wall of cloud / poor vis from the ground up and as far to the west as I could see, there was also a few returns on the storm scope. Wind from the ground up was a consistent 20Kt+ northerly and yes there were showers moving through.
I suppose this is the weather that would have still been prevailing around the time of the incident.
Have to agree with havick too.
I suppose this is the weather that would have still been prevailing around the time of the incident.
Have to agree with havick too.
Havick:
I think you might like to delete your post or risk being labeled a pompous **** with a very very short memory :-
Pilot, nurse die in Sydney plane crash
Whilst the premise behind Angel Flight is noble, I have always maintained that EMS / medical transfer flights should be made only by contracted operators.
The pax have no idea what they are getting themselves into when they board and Angel Flight as opposed to a contracted operator.
The pax have no idea what they are getting themselves into when they board and Angel Flight as opposed to a contracted operator.
Pilot, nurse die in Sydney plane crash
In my opinion, a NVFR rating should not exist. It is rarely used for what it was designed for.
I used it commercially many years ago and looking back.....there but for the grace of God go I.
I had an expired MECIR when I exercised it, (a couple of years earlier had done the full training) and I imagine that that is the only reason I'm still alive. If I had had a bare bones NVFR and had done it I can think of a couple of occasions where I would have sucumbed to the visual and somotogravic illusions that exist. Instead I managed to claw it back and only scared myself half to death.
I think it needs reconsidering.
I used it commercially many years ago and looking back.....there but for the grace of God go I.
I had an expired MECIR when I exercised it, (a couple of years earlier had done the full training) and I imagine that that is the only reason I'm still alive. If I had had a bare bones NVFR and had done it I can think of a couple of occasions where I would have sucumbed to the visual and somotogravic illusions that exist. Instead I managed to claw it back and only scared myself half to death.
I think it needs reconsidering.
Have to agree with Sunfish...not to mention the air ambulance that went in approaching Mt Gambier a few years back.
Fact is IFR,VFR, commercial or private, they will all crash in bad weather with lack of care or the rules not being followed.
There is nothing wrong with NVFR providing it is just that..night V F R.
And I would guess there is not one among us that has not got caught out or pushed the boundries at some time or other. This latest accident unfortunatley comes as a timely reminder.
Fact is IFR,VFR, commercial or private, they will all crash in bad weather with lack of care or the rules not being followed.
There is nothing wrong with NVFR providing it is just that..night V F R.
And I would guess there is not one among us that has not got caught out or pushed the boundries at some time or other. This latest accident unfortunatley comes as a timely reminder.
Sunfish... Label me however you like, but I will not retract my opinion.
Yes, any A/C can crash. But the punters that jump on board an Angel Flight really take pot luck with who's flying them and in what equipment. One day they could get a highly experienced pilot in a good A/C, then next a brand new PPL in a busted ass 172.
What audits do pilots/aircraft go through, what minimum experience is required prior to a certain flight being undertaken etc etc..
There heart is in the right place, but does joe public really know who is flying him/her around?
** note that I am not speculating on this particular crash and its' cause.
Yes, any A/C can crash. But the punters that jump on board an Angel Flight really take pot luck with who's flying them and in what equipment. One day they could get a highly experienced pilot in a good A/C, then next a brand new PPL in a busted ass 172.
What audits do pilots/aircraft go through, what minimum experience is required prior to a certain flight being undertaken etc etc..
There heart is in the right place, but does joe public really know who is flying him/her around?
** note that I am not speculating on this particular crash and its' cause.
Havick:
You might like to remove that post as well since it labels you as unthinking and ignorant as well as forgetful.
Yes, any A/C can crash. But the punters that jump on board an Angel Flight really take pot luck with who's flying them and in what equipment. One day they could get a highly experienced pilot in a good A/C, then next a brand new PPL in a busted ass 172.
You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine.
Label me however you want, I really couldn't care less. Don't think for a second that I hide behind anonimity here, because I voice my openly about this subject.
Label me however you want, I really couldn't care less. Don't think for a second that I hide behind anonimity here, because I voice my openly about this subject.
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In my opinion, a NVFR rating should not exist.
I say this without prejudicing my opinion that many regulations are made to suit an eleventh hour protocol to save CASA's arse.
The NVFR is not such a case.
Things could have changed since I last flew at night, but the forcast was the deciding factor on whether a NVFR flight could be legally undertaken.
If this was taken in hand when preparing any NVFR flight, in near end of daylight, (not necessarily this one), the flight should be considered to be able to progress with safety.
From Angelflight web site
"Our volunteer pilots and aircraft owners' flight credentials exceed the requirements of CASA and the aircraft meet specified CASA and insurance minimums"
There is also a mention of a minimum of 250 hours
So in other words the standard is the legal minimum or above
"Our volunteer pilots and aircraft owners' flight credentials exceed the requirements of CASA and the aircraft meet specified CASA and insurance minimums"
There is also a mention of a minimum of 250 hours
So in other words the standard is the legal minimum or above
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The pax have no idea what they are getting themselves into when they board and Angel Flight as opposed to a contracted operator.
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Well Sunfish label me a pompous arse, but I have to agree with Havick.
When people board these flights they have no idea what rules and regulations surround these operations. I agree that this is indeed a very noble idea but what are the checks and balances involved. What is their interview process and background checks? What is their Check and Training system? How do they know if someone is current? I've seen some pretty ordinary stuff from some of these operations labelled as Angel Flight in the past and have only thought it would be a matter of time before an accident happened.
I'm absolutely certain that all of you, if faced with putting a loved one in a RFDS B200 or an Angelflight Cessna 172 for a flight to wherever, you would all go for the B200 as you are all well aware of the differences between the two operations.
When people board these flights they have no idea what rules and regulations surround these operations. I agree that this is indeed a very noble idea but what are the checks and balances involved. What is their interview process and background checks? What is their Check and Training system? How do they know if someone is current? I've seen some pretty ordinary stuff from some of these operations labelled as Angel Flight in the past and have only thought it would be a matter of time before an accident happened.
I'm absolutely certain that all of you, if faced with putting a loved one in a RFDS B200 or an Angelflight Cessna 172 for a flight to wherever, you would all go for the B200 as you are all well aware of the differences between the two operations.
[quote
In my opinion, a NVFR rating should not exist.
Like everything aviation, history is usually the motivation for sensible regulation. Statements as above do little to enhance the good this rating allows VFR pilots.
quote]
..... but do weigh this good against the loss of life that follows as a consequence.
In my opinion, a NVFR rating should not exist.
Like everything aviation, history is usually the motivation for sensible regulation. Statements as above do little to enhance the good this rating allows VFR pilots.
quote]
..... but do weigh this good against the loss of life that follows as a consequence.
I don't do angel flights myself but have two mates that do.
If it was to be only a commercial operation it simply would not exist. Few if any commercial operators would do it for free as they have a business to run with all the costs of it to cover,and fair enough.Most people who use it could not afford to pay for it so would go by other slower means. So be careful what you say. If angel flight ceased to be who would be the losers? The very people it was set up to help. Just like the many commuter airlines that closed down following the Monarch crash at Young and another enroute to Lord Howe Isand because "we can't have these old piston aircraft like Chieftans in RPT" many rural communities now have no airservice. Not to mention less jobs for new CPL's.
If it was to be only a commercial operation it simply would not exist. Few if any commercial operators would do it for free as they have a business to run with all the costs of it to cover,and fair enough.Most people who use it could not afford to pay for it so would go by other slower means. So be careful what you say. If angel flight ceased to be who would be the losers? The very people it was set up to help. Just like the many commuter airlines that closed down following the Monarch crash at Young and another enroute to Lord Howe Isand because "we can't have these old piston aircraft like Chieftans in RPT" many rural communities now have no airservice. Not to mention less jobs for new CPL's.
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Oh and to whoever posted the irrelevant comment about the RFDS accident at Mount Gambier. The RFDS operates around 70,000 flights a year nationally. So 1 fatality in around 700,000 flights or on a better scale 1 fatality in 230,000,000 km flown is nowhere in the range of 1 fatality in 11,000 flights. Thats 63 fatalities for every 1 of the RFDS.
Harry, That was me son. I am quite aware of the RFDS safety record but it merely points out an IFR operation does not guantee safety in itself.
As to your silly comment about getting on an air ambulance well ofcourse that would be safer/better etc. But the point is this is not available to Angel flight users. There condition does not qualify them to go by air ambulance. They are usually people going to clinic for long term treatment like chemo etc,or often for family members of patients visiting from remote areas. To the best of my knowledge the RFDS does not run an RPT service for all and sundry.
As to your silly comment about getting on an air ambulance well ofcourse that would be safer/better etc. But the point is this is not available to Angel flight users. There condition does not qualify them to go by air ambulance. They are usually people going to clinic for long term treatment like chemo etc,or often for family members of patients visiting from remote areas. To the best of my knowledge the RFDS does not run an RPT service for all and sundry.
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For those jumping the gun and calling for the NVFR to be scraped (or state it shouldn't exist)
This accident has nothing to do with NVFR. It would be the same as saying IFR shouldn't exist because somebody in a metro flew into a hill..
Not all flying conditions suit all flights. Forecasts whilst not bad, can be wrong. This accident may not even be related to NVFR.
If you are so convinced NVFR is so bad, climb out of your turbine multi, climb into a piston single and go for a night flight in good conditions. It can be very enjoyable.
Weather permitting I would prefer to be NVFR than IFR (at night) There is generally more light outside the cloud.
This accident has nothing to do with NVFR. It would be the same as saying IFR shouldn't exist because somebody in a metro flew into a hill..
Not all flying conditions suit all flights. Forecasts whilst not bad, can be wrong. This accident may not even be related to NVFR.
If you are so convinced NVFR is so bad, climb out of your turbine multi, climb into a piston single and go for a night flight in good conditions. It can be very enjoyable.
Weather permitting I would prefer to be NVFR than IFR (at night) There is generally more light outside the cloud.