Is Australia its own Worst Enemy?
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I know it's wrong on so many levels but... I love Richo. 
He's gone rogue on them and is saying what so many voters-formerly-known-as-ALP-supporters are thinking, just more eloquently and a lot more publicly. Of course it's doing his media career the world of good, but still... good for him for speaking out against the machine. Whatever his sins (and they'd be many
) he's forgotten more about political manoeuvring than these guys will ever begin to know.
He's gone rogue on them and is saying what so many voters-formerly-known-as-ALP-supporters are thinking, just more eloquently and a lot more publicly. Of course it's doing his media career the world of good, but still... good for him for speaking out against the machine. Whatever his sins (and they'd be many
) he's forgotten more about political manoeuvring than these guys will ever begin to know.
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Machiavelli 101. I always liked his stuff too.
The thing with 'Whatever it takes' as a philosophy is that it requires a constant assessment of what people want. In Machiavelli's time it was 'what does the Prince want'? In our own time it's 'what do the voters want'? Not what the Greens want, not what the media want, not what the focus groups and opinion polls want (where opinion poll is defined as the five hundred people out of 14 million who didn't say '
off and die' when some random person rang their landline while dinner was turning into mushroom custard 
.
Either way, it involves a constant assessment of stakeholder views. IMO this is something the current government has consistently failed to do, and that's why they're as consistently popular as herpes (and seemingly as hard to get rid of
). They see the Greens and the Independents as stakeholders, which is probably right in the short term, because after all, there's a chance they might all pull their support and back the Libs. There's also a chance that a donkey might win the Melbourne Cup, but forgive me if I don't put money on it. 
However, their long term stakeholders are roughly half of the voting public that vote Labor, as opposed to the other roughly half that vote Lib/Nat/FF. If too many of that half in the marginal seats get annoyed enough, doing deals with Bob and the Gang becomes irrelevant relatively quickly. The difference between the voters and Bob and the Gang is that while the Independents become part of the landscape the moment the balance of power is assured (either way), the annoyed voters are still important, because marginal seats tend to stay marginal. A better long term goal may be to retain a degree of integrity with the voters, rather than this week's balance of power polititard.
Many years ago, the Queensland Coalition learned this the hard way when they threw in their lot with Liz Cunningham of Gladstone. Years on, Liz is still there praying for Gladstone but the Coalition have spent so long in the wilderness that Bear Grylls is putting them on his show.
The thing with 'Whatever it takes' as a philosophy is that it requires a constant assessment of what people want. In Machiavelli's time it was 'what does the Prince want'? In our own time it's 'what do the voters want'? Not what the Greens want, not what the media want, not what the focus groups and opinion polls want (where opinion poll is defined as the five hundred people out of 14 million who didn't say '
off and die' when some random person rang their landline while dinner was turning into mushroom custard . Either way, it involves a constant assessment of stakeholder views. IMO this is something the current government has consistently failed to do, and that's why they're as consistently popular as herpes (and seemingly as hard to get rid of
). They see the Greens and the Independents as stakeholders, which is probably right in the short term, because after all, there's a chance they might all pull their support and back the Libs. There's also a chance that a donkey might win the Melbourne Cup, but forgive me if I don't put money on it. However, their long term stakeholders are roughly half of the voting public that vote Labor, as opposed to the other roughly half that vote Lib/Nat/FF. If too many of that half in the marginal seats get annoyed enough, doing deals with Bob and the Gang becomes irrelevant relatively quickly. The difference between the voters and Bob and the Gang is that while the Independents become part of the landscape the moment the balance of power is assured (either way), the annoyed voters are still important, because marginal seats tend to stay marginal. A better long term goal may be to retain a degree of integrity with the voters, rather than this week's balance of power polititard.
Many years ago, the Queensland Coalition learned this the hard way when they threw in their lot with Liz Cunningham of Gladstone. Years on, Liz is still there praying for Gladstone but the Coalition have spent so long in the wilderness that Bear Grylls is putting them on his show.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 8th Oct 2011 at 13:56.
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and that's why they're as consistently popular as herpes (and seemingly as hard to get rid of ).
Maybe it will take an 'Oz Spring'? We (the blue rinse set and the truckies) tried that with the Canberra rallies and were either thoroughly ignored or denigrated as small, crazy fringe groups, both by governemnt and the MSM.
Maybe it's because we're too damned polite? Left wing demonstraters are allowed to run riot, almost as if it's expected of them, but if anyone on the Right even gets out a placard, the left-loving MSM, especially the ABC, almost have conniptions pilloring the demonstrators and saying that "they should know better".
Perhaps it will come down to any and every time Ms Gillard shows her face in public, she is repeatedly requested with a clear and unamgiguous message from a long succession of people telling her she should go. It should be a catchy one-liner, so that the message gets through and so that everyone knows it word perfect, a bit like the way everyone now knows and can repeat "There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead".
Suggestions for the catchy one-liner?
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Well, Ditch the Witch, has a certain ring to it. Or perhaps, See yar Joolyar might avoid the expected upset from the feminist left.
PS Woohoo! Can access PPRuNe when we're close to land!
PS Woohoo! Can access PPRuNe when we're close to land!
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In a democracy they can live comfortably, enjoy the high quality of life which they did not build and work for, they don’t have to be productive and earn a living, they can be wild, and break the law, exploit the social services, wear Burkas and make a mockery of our Police and Courts and generally bite the hand that feeds them.
The Arabs are not happy
What proof can you show us to back up your statement?
Is it Arabs that seem to have gotten under your skin or is it Muslims?
Australian Muslims make up less than 3% of our population yet our Government is fixated on pandering to them...
Do you consider yourself and all other Australians the same group?
If some idiot who happens to be a vegemite eating,card carrying surf club member Australian and is called Johnno or Stevo (3rd or 4th generation by birth if that makes you happy) does something very stupid and who milks the welfare system (as many do) at every opportunity do you include these as in your group because they have not migrated to Australia or arrived as a refugee ?
Would you be happy to have yourself and ALL Australians regarded as the same just as you have with all those who are Arabic?
Your posts seem to be all but consumed with a Xenophobic theme that I for one find disturbing.
With regard to the 14 year old allegedly in possession of 6.9 grams of cannabis in Bali.
I have no problem with him facing the legal system of any country if he was an adult but he is not.There are a few points to be raised here though.
First,is there one of us who did not do anything stupid when we were 13 or 14 and were lucky to get away with it?
Second,to suggest that he had no right at 14 to be walking down the beach without his parents is ridiculous.Anyone here not walk down the beach or there shops at that age in Bali or any holiday destination on their own?
Third,we are hearing reports from the media about his alleged history and behaviour and most here seem to be accepting this as the gospel truth when as anyone involved in aviation and other areas of employment know that the media can and frequently do print or report stories that are patently false or at best exaggerated.
It has been suggested that his Indonesian legal representation has advised that it would be best for him to state that he is a known user of cannabis for personal reasons rather than as an alleged dealer.How do any of us know that these stories are the complete truth.
We have a situation where an Australian 14 year old is facing the indonesian legal and justice system which can be described as an oxymoron at best and a quagmire of duplicitous decisions at worst.It is a widely known rumour that the Bali dealers work with the so called intel police and give up their customers who are then arrested and the goods returned to the dealer to sell again and so the process goes on and on.
We see a legal system which if enforced could see this 14 year old locked up for 12 years but an Indonesian Airline captain who was responsible for the deaths of many people basically walked away a free man.
I'm not condoning drug use in any way but to leave a 14 year old in this situation is not acceptable to me and if any of us had a son or daughter in the same situation we would be doing everything possible to get them home and if the charges true true then dealing with them when they got home.
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With regard to the 14 year old allegedly in possession of 6.9 grams of cannabis in Bali.
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Methinks, in an effort to showeth thy Political Correctness quotient is at the required level, thou protesteth a teesh too loudly, Lex.
One quick example: we all know everyone in Melbourne (except Collingwood supporters) hates Collingwood with a passion. Every ask why this is so? It's the Melbourne version of Celtics versus Rangers - i.e., Catholics versus Protestants.
It's roots lie well in our colonial (and early Federation) past, when, to mainstream Establishment (i.e., Protestant) Australia, the (Catholic) Irish were the Muslims of the day. Because, in large part, the Catholic Irish have proven not to be the threat to our way of life that many if not most non-Catholic Australians (including 'the father of Australian Federation', Henry Parkes) expected them to be, most of those old hatreds have dissolved - or are so far below the surface, they can be more or less ignored today.
The exception has been in the 'Collingwood versus the Rest' among Melbourne footy fans. Even though most footy fans have long forgotten why they hate Collingwood, they just do - and whether you like it or not, it all goes back to the Prods hating those bloody Roman Papists.
So, given that there was certainly no Political Correctness involved back in Henry Parkes' days, and having read the history lesson, can I ask you what you believe the reaction if a suburban Melbourne Council was to have curtained off a swimming pool back then so that Catholic women could bathe in private? (Not that there were any public swimming pools back then, but you know the point I'm attempting to make.) And then ask what it would be today if you deleted 'Muslim' and inserted 'Catholic' or 'Anabaptist' or 'Exclusive Brethern'.
I can't tell you how much I hope the Muslim 'threat' so many of us see to our way of life proves to be as ill-conceived as the Catholic threat has proven to be. I think the big difference was that the Catholics, if they wanted to make a living, simply had to fit in. Ill-conceived Political Correctness today is not only allowing Muslims not to fit in, but encouraging them to remain separate, reinforcing the ghetto mentality while (what many would see as too generous) government handouts allow them to exist in a separate state within a state at a standard of living quite acceptable to many of them, even if it might not be acceptable to many Australians not born in the Third World.
One quick example: we all know everyone in Melbourne (except Collingwood supporters) hates Collingwood with a passion. Every ask why this is so? It's the Melbourne version of Celtics versus Rangers - i.e., Catholics versus Protestants.
It's roots lie well in our colonial (and early Federation) past, when, to mainstream Establishment (i.e., Protestant) Australia, the (Catholic) Irish were the Muslims of the day. Because, in large part, the Catholic Irish have proven not to be the threat to our way of life that many if not most non-Catholic Australians (including 'the father of Australian Federation', Henry Parkes) expected them to be, most of those old hatreds have dissolved - or are so far below the surface, they can be more or less ignored today.
The exception has been in the 'Collingwood versus the Rest' among Melbourne footy fans. Even though most footy fans have long forgotten why they hate Collingwood, they just do - and whether you like it or not, it all goes back to the Prods hating those bloody Roman Papists.
So, given that there was certainly no Political Correctness involved back in Henry Parkes' days, and having read the history lesson, can I ask you what you believe the reaction if a suburban Melbourne Council was to have curtained off a swimming pool back then so that Catholic women could bathe in private? (Not that there were any public swimming pools back then, but you know the point I'm attempting to make.) And then ask what it would be today if you deleted 'Muslim' and inserted 'Catholic' or 'Anabaptist' or 'Exclusive Brethern'.
I can't tell you how much I hope the Muslim 'threat' so many of us see to our way of life proves to be as ill-conceived as the Catholic threat has proven to be. I think the big difference was that the Catholics, if they wanted to make a living, simply had to fit in. Ill-conceived Political Correctness today is not only allowing Muslims not to fit in, but encouraging them to remain separate, reinforcing the ghetto mentality while (what many would see as too generous) government handouts allow them to exist in a separate state within a state at a standard of living quite acceptable to many of them, even if it might not be acceptable to many Australians not born in the Third World.
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Dark Knight...are you talking about Arabs or Muslims?
Not all Muslims are Arabs.
Indonesia is home to the world's largest Muslim population, is the world's third most populous democracy, and yet they don't appear to be beating a path to our back door.
Not all Muslims are Arabs.
Indonesia is home to the world's largest Muslim population, is the world's third most populous democracy, and yet they don't appear to be beating a path to our back door.
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A copy of a letter to The Editor of a WA newspaper outlining the failures of both parties posed the following to the present Prime Minister. He provided the answers to those initiatives as he saw them, but I reproduce them here for those who seem intent on diverting the argument away from the Labor mess.
Feel free to involve yourselves by giving answers. I've started with the first;
INITIATIVES. /OUTCOMES.
Carbon tax / There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead.
NBN
BER
Home insulation plan
Citizens Assembly
Hospital reform
Digital set top boxes for seniors
Emmissions trading scheme
Mining super tax
Indonesian livestock ban
Detention centres
Malaysia solution
Computers in schools
Cutting red tape
Green loans
Solar homes and communities plan
Solar credits scheme
Childcare centres
Reducing the public sector
Murray-Darling basin plan
2020 summit
Fuel watch
Grocery watch
Stimulus package $900
Solar hot water system rebate
Defence family local health clinics
National education curriculum
Indigenous housing program
Better defence uniforms
New submarine fleet
And lastly an update on how you are redressing the $90 billion surplus left to you as a legacy from the previous government that somehow you managed to turn in to a $250 billion defecit.
EDIT.
As it was in Egypt. However I wouldn't like to be a Coptic Christian there right now.
Feel free to involve yourselves by giving answers. I've started with the first;
INITIATIVES. /OUTCOMES.
Carbon tax / There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead.
NBN
BER
Home insulation plan
Citizens Assembly
Hospital reform
Digital set top boxes for seniors
Emmissions trading scheme
Mining super tax
Indonesian livestock ban
Detention centres
Malaysia solution
Computers in schools
Cutting red tape
Green loans
Solar homes and communities plan
Solar credits scheme
Childcare centres
Reducing the public sector
Murray-Darling basin plan
2020 summit
Fuel watch
Grocery watch
Stimulus package $900
Solar hot water system rebate
Defence family local health clinics
National education curriculum
Indigenous housing program
Better defence uniforms
New submarine fleet
And lastly an update on how you are redressing the $90 billion surplus left to you as a legacy from the previous government that somehow you managed to turn in to a $250 billion defecit.
EDIT.
Not all Muslims are Arabs
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Frank
Red Tape: This has definitely been cut, but lengthwise not across as intended
this has permitted a doubling of regulations at no extra tape cost.
There were 2 extra points not listed:
Federal Whistleblowing provisions: Dreyfus Report well done and then shelved because it was too damning of past and present burocrats.
Changes to Accountability and Transparency: Citizens are now more accountable and our affairs are more transparent (big Brother)
Feel free to involve yourselves by giving answers. I've started with the first;
this has permitted a doubling of regulations at no extra tape cost.
There were 2 extra points not listed:
Federal Whistleblowing provisions: Dreyfus Report well done and then shelved because it was too damning of past and present burocrats.
Changes to Accountability and Transparency: Citizens are now more accountable and our affairs are more transparent (big Brother)
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A few letter writers here not enamoured at the thought of Krudd getting his hands on the reins again.
The country can't afford to have Kevin Rudd back | The Australian
The country can't afford to have Kevin Rudd back | The Australian
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but then I guess it depends on the bias with which one wishes to rewrite history or your version of it.
And then ask what it would be today if you deleted 'Muslim' and inserted 'Catholic' or 'Anabaptist' or 'Exclusive Brethern'.
That'll get a bite!
Last edited by Blanik3; 10th Oct 2011 at 13:08. Reason: grammar
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Could you be just a little guilty of purposely not getting the point Andu was trying to make, Blanik3?
The last paragraph bears repeating:
The last paragraph bears repeating:
I can't tell you how much I hope the Muslim 'threat' so many of us see to our way of life proves to be as ill-conceived as the Catholic threat has proven to be. I think the big difference was that the Catholics, if they wanted to make a living, simply had to fit in. Ill-conceived Political Correctness today is not only allowing Muslims not to fit in, but encouraging them to remain separate, reinforcing the ghetto mentality while (what many would see as too generous) government handouts allow them to exist in a separate state within a state at a standard of living quite acceptable to many of them, even if it might not be acceptable to many Australians not born in the Third World.
Catholics weren't asking for a separate legal system (Sharia Law). As mostly white, Christian, English speakers who expected to do a days work in order to eat they would have fitted in.
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You're right about the Catholics, Metroman, but at the time, as Andu said, Parkes and many others saw them as a real threat to society, not far behind the Chinese. If you read some of his speeches about 'the Papists', he made Pauline Hanson seem to the left of 'Watermelon' Lee Rhiannon in comparsion.
As late as the 1960s, there were numerous cases in Australia of sons or daughters being disowned by their parents for marrying across the Catholic/Protestant divide.
As a child, (late 50s, possibly very early 60s), I can recall our family being invited to a wedding "in the wrong church" and our parish priest forbidding my mother from attending the service. She ignored him, but I think we both looked up to the rafters when we walked into that church expecting the roof to come tumbling down on top of us!
The Catholic church's insistence that all children of "mixed marraiges" be brought up Catholics wasn't too far removed from the present day Muslim insistence that any non-Muslim male marrying a Muslim woman converting to Islam. (Funny how they don't insist on the same thing when the genders are reversed.)
As late as the 1960s, there were numerous cases in Australia of sons or daughters being disowned by their parents for marrying across the Catholic/Protestant divide.
As a child, (late 50s, possibly very early 60s), I can recall our family being invited to a wedding "in the wrong church" and our parish priest forbidding my mother from attending the service. She ignored him, but I think we both looked up to the rafters when we walked into that church expecting the roof to come tumbling down on top of us!
The Catholic church's insistence that all children of "mixed marraiges" be brought up Catholics wasn't too far removed from the present day Muslim insistence that any non-Muslim male marrying a Muslim woman converting to Islam. (Funny how they don't insist on the same thing when the genders are reversed.)
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Catholics weren't asking for a separate legal system (Sharia Law). As mostly white, Christian, English speakers who expected to do a days work in order to eat they would have fitted in.
