instructing?

[ThePaperBoy]

I reckon it's a very good thing if your instructor has actually worked outside the training environment for a period , be it Charter , airline RPT or any other commercial operation and can bring that valuable experience back into the flying school however it is a rarity .

Yes, it would be a good thing in some cases. Whilst instructing I had a number of ex-airline, turboprop GA etc pilots become flying instructors (for the first time or back for another shot). Things often started off okay, but it didn't take long for some of these experienced pilots to become jaded flying 'little' planes and pass poor attitudes on to students. Experienced pilots didn't always equate to good flying instructors, much like inexperienced pilots didn't always equate to poor flying instructors. Again, it was down to the individual, their motivations and stage of life, but why would a pilot want to drop down the ladder to instructing unless they were forced or wanted a seachange?

Personally I wouldn't want to go back to instructing unless I lost my job and had no other options. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed teaching people to fly at the time but the state of flying school GA doesn't encourage anything but a mostly transient group of pilots. Why wouldn't I want to go back?

• Even as a Grade 1, multi-engine instructor I'd be only earning 30-50% of what I earn elsewhere. Why would an experienced pilot become a Grade 3 instructor for only around $35K a year?
• CASA have made a serious effort in recent years to destroy the souls of instructors during renewals/upgrades, and basically label anyone that didn't learn to fly in Chipmunks as terrible pilots. They expect you to know the square root of the pickle, which I discovered in the real world is never actually required. They don't encourage a culture of passing on 'real-world' experience but rather tick the boxes that make up the Day VFR Syllabus.
• The flying to paperwork ratio would increase dramatically, not in flying's favour.
• The constant stress of students being put up for flight tests. Again, ATOs with agendas and a RAAF mentality make life very hard for some. Not everyone has the ability to be an air force pilot - they shouldn't be assessed that way.
• In the last 10 years I have noticed a greater proportion of student pilots become lazy and only put in minimal effort. Many students are there just to post on face book that they are a pilot, rather than having a true passion for aviation. This gets you down after a while.

There has been talk of increasing instructor minimums since I began learning to fly. But would this really work? Why would someone want to go back to flying single-engine Pipers or Cessnas once they've gained experienced and their career was advancing? Better pay and conditions would need to be offered to attract such pilots, which would have a dramatic effect on the wafer-thin profit margins of flying schools.

[Lasiorhinus]

But if the only people qualified to be instructors were the same pilots who could make a decent wage elsewhere, that would instantly eliminate the sham contractor flying schools who undercut the minimum wage and have their staff earning less than the dole, because there would be a sudden lack of inexperienced, hungry newbies.

[airag]

To clarify regarding Instructors returning to Flight Training , I did have in mind previously qualified instructors returning after a period of commercial op's , not starting as grade three !

[The Bunglerat]

I spent ten years instructing in GA before landing a gig with the majors. In between I did a tiny bit of charter & some search-&-rescue flying, but I would hazard a guess that instructing constituted almost 90 percent of my GA flying. Some things I pondered along the way...

• I never intended to be a career instructor, but was a relatively late starter (married with two kids & another to come later), & as much as I would have loved to do the "up-north" rite of passage, for various family reasons we were committed to staying in the big city - so it was instructing or nothing.
• During my ten year stint, I regularly heard people say that "you shouldn't instruct unless you really want to be an instructor", or "those that can, do, & those that can't, teach", or "instructors are useless to anyone outside of instructing", or "you'll never get into the airlines unless you grow some big brass ones & head north/get into some charter flying", etc, etc. After a few years it became very tiring to hear the same stuff over & over, & towards the end of my time as an instructor I must confess I was getting well & truly fed up with playing babysitter to the guy/girl sitting next to me - instead of just getting on the with the job of flying an aeroplane myself - but having said that, I never short-changed my students & always made sure they got the best I had to offer.
• If I had to go back to GA instructing tomorrow, I would most likely pull the pin on flying - period. Over ten years it all but sucked the life out of me, & in the end I couldn't wait to get the hell out of it. Not just instructing, but GA in general. Nevertheless I still believe teaching of any kind to be a noble profession for those who commit to it as a long term career path. I was lucky that I got to do a lot of what I call "quality" instructing, i.e. multi-IFR/airline cadet & the like, as opposed to just bashing around the circuit for thousands of hours in a C152. In this regard, I think I developed skills that placed me well for a career with the airlines, as I was already familiar with multi-crew concepts & adherence to airline orientated SOP's (unlike the circuit bashers & guys flying single-pilot charter).

I'm not going to get into the old instructing vs charter debate, except to say that I eventually got to where I wanted to be - & coming from an instructing background never hindered my career anywhere near as much as many people thought it would. Granted, I took a bit longer to get there than I would have preferred, but again that was for personal reasons, not because of being an instructor.

Whatever works for you...

[dlx_xlb]

If your not too keen on instructing..

Then your not likely to get through an instructor rating and pass the test anyway..

[Clearedtoreenter]

Nothing wrong with hours builders who instruct - mostly they are very highly motivated and committed to their career goals, good at instructing and they make a valuable contribution to the schools they work for. They are often a big loss when they do move on. As for some of the ones who'd like to move on but don't...... SOME of them end up making excellent CFIs and ATOs.

Who in their right mind would seriously think of instructing for a living.? It might be a lot of fun but there's no money or real career future in it, is there? If the instructing step helps get you where you want to go and you're prepared to commit to it, even for a short time, give it a go!

[By George]

Hmmm... Interesting post. I have just retired from a 42 year flying career, most of it Airline. I am now 62 and bored. Thought I might renew my Instructor rating that expired in 1973 and try and get a day or two a week. (I have just renewed my Instrument rating in a light twin). Two outfits have said, "you will be taking work off the young ones, why not try golf or something". I have Airline training experience and understand some of the problems in the Industry, especially the low hour cadet thing. I am an aeroplane nut and love GA flying but I am now looking at aircraft ownership. GA seems to encourage the 19 year-old instructor syndrome. I am ex SQ and had to go at 62 the Ex-Pat retirement age. ( Just bought a set of clubs, I always listen to good advice, so watch out you low flying C150 types).

[Super Cecil]

Whats a jnr grade 3 earn these days anyway??

Yoo mean how much do they pay?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I thoroughly agree with 'SOME' previous posters.....

'If ya heart ain't in it, then don't even think about it!"

At my time of learning at the 'Royal Aero Club of NSW', there were a couple of instructors I had the mis-pleasure (IN HINDSIGHT!!!) of flying with - who could NOT take their eyes off the departing / arriving RPT acft ex /into SY, and who gave me NO Value whatsoever as THEIR student....

HOWEVER - IF you HONESTLY reckon that you would give your students your FULL and undivided 100% 'Care and Attention'....then why not consider it??

Who knows, you could be among the 'last of the 'real instructors' who 'care'......

BUT - IF you stay in that mode too long, then you will never be 'well off' in terms of pay etc.

However (again) it can be a most rewarding career in terms of job satisfaction IF you can land a GOOD job at a GOOD school, where some Charter / MECIR / variations are available to you....

There's nothing like 'old age' to give one the 'proper perspective' on life.....

Cheers and Good Luck!!

[LexAir]

Here is the link to the Air pilots Award 2010:

http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/mode...f/MA000046.pdf

[LexAir]

Absolutely agree! May your New Year be a happy and prosperous one whatever direction you take.

Good luck

[Mr.Buzzy]

By George,
If I was looking for flying training and you were among the instructors, I'd ask you to teach me. The 18 year old can caddy for the golfers his CFI seems so interested in encouraging.
Do us all a favour and renew that rating. So much knowledge, experience and wisdom to pass on. Please don't be put off by a CFI that sees you as a bigger fish in his small pond.
Happy new year!

Bbbbbbzbzbzbzbbzzzzzzzzz

[Tidbinbilla]

Mr. Buzzy,

The problem here is that flying schools want their (largely inexperienced 150 hour) instructors to work for free, or at best, 1980's wages as illegal subcontractors, whereas By George probably (and rightfully) expects to be paid a fair and reasonable wage for his many thousands of hours experience.

It's a no-brainer for the flying school. They can make up any excuse they like to not employ someone like By George. Why would they pay for somebody with many thousands of hours experience and knowledge (exactly what the candidate needs), when there is an endless supply of increasingly dumber sprogs (taught by inexperienced sprogs) that will work for free.

Flying schools in AUS (by and large) have no interest in furthering or up-skilling our trainees (and putting back into the industry) by utilising guys like By George, but every interest in making a fast buck.

In the end, it's our (and the industry's) loss.

Until such time as this is turned around by a change in attitude AWAY from the fast buck, and back towards QUALITY training, the flying training industry will continue to languish AS IT DESERVES.

[Wally Mk2]

'By G' I think what yr facing is an age old problem these days, many years experience gained & unable to pass it on at the end of the day. When we really think about it after many years in the flying game what do we have to show for it? What can we sell? Nothing really other than pass on some of that experience by way of teaching & even that thins out in time. Unlike most other businesses where you work all yr life say building up yr own business & at the end of the day you have something tangible to sell, a pilots license isn't worth the paper it's printed on sadly!
Flying schools am sure would have to raise their prices a lot if the industry instructors where paid properly, then I guess the merry-go-round would come to a halt sooner than latter as no one could afford to learn to fly, bit damned if you do damned if you don't!

Well at least the George's of this world can perhaps leave a little of that wisdom behind by teaching/instructing even just one youngster & hopefully that will have the snowball effect
'BG' go buy a boat, still travels in knots so you will feel a little at home!

Wmk2

[Jabawocky]

By George

PM me.....I think I know where you could fit in.

I prefer the experienced folk...... I actually learn from them. Except when it comes to engine management......but that is a whole thread of its own

[By George]

Jaba I have sent you my contact details via a 'PM'. BG

[c100driver]

new or old?

With motor skill training such as manipulation of an aircraft controls it is usually better to have an instructor who can explain the process from recent experience of having to learning it for themselves.

Most experienced pilots have honed those motor skills to the point that they no longer consciously have to think how to move a flight control to achieve an outcome, they just do it instinctual and automatic. How do you explain to a student how to do something that you have long since relegated to long term memory. This is where you can see the more experienced pilot become frustrated teaching something that they have long since mastered. It becomes difficult to break down into small teaching bites from first steps.

However when the new instructor with low experience comes to teaching non motor skills such as flight nav, weather interpretation, airfield inspection (airborne), airborne decision making, airmanship etc then they really start to struggle with the lack of real experience behind the teaching.

Best choice is a newbie to solo consolidation then an oldie for advanced cross country and navigation.

As for instruction as a stepping stone, I have found that as long as the new instructor can approach the job as a professional and give their best effort then they usually are always better off for the experience.

[43Inches]

With motor skill training such as manipulation of an aircraft controls it is usually better to have an instructor who can explain the process from recent experience of having to learning it for themselves.

Havn't seen this in practice, the new instructors will generally just parrot off what their instructor taught them. A lot can have trouble explaining why they do things a certain way, but can demonstrate and teach how it is acheived. These techniques may be correct or not, depends on the quality of instruction they received.

I do agree however that a lot of experienced pilots can have trouble explaining how things are done. If the experienced pilot is coached in how to teach (and has the temperament) they should be far better at passing on knowledge by understanding of the subject matter and how to approach problems/concepts from different angles.

The problem here is that flying schools want their (largely inexperienced 150 hour) instructors to work for free, or at best, 1980's wages as illegal subcontractors, whereas By George probably (and rightfully) expects to be paid a fair and reasonable wage for his many thousands of hours experience.

I think thats the exact problem.

Flying schools am sure would have to raise their prices a lot if the industry instructors were paid properly, then I guess the merry-go-round would come to a halt sooner than latter as no one could afford to learn to fly, bit damned if you do damned if you don't!

In the past 10-15 years aircraft hire rates have at least trippled whilst pay rates have remained much the same. GST, fuel and maintenance costs have all soared and the flying schools are still are there. The ones that went broke were the ones not willing to change with the times and had poor management. As with the rest of the aviation sector if schools invested more money in good employees they would pay for themselves and profit from the work that they attract.

A good instructor may save 10 hours training to a PPL, not good for buisness if looked at each individual case but, a good instructor though reputation will attract 10 times more through the door if marketed correctly.

[MetGirl]

I don't think you ever really know if you'll enjoy or be good at something until you give it a go. You may not want to be an instructor forever, but as long as you go into it with a positive attitude and enjoy it while you're doing it.

[Centaurus]

Your cash may be better off put towards a ME-CIR or other rating.

Better still, go to USA and get a Airbus or 737 type rating in the simulator for $20,000 USD then give another $25,000 USD to Eagle Jet Recruiting to place you in an Asian airline right seat for the 500 hours Agreement. Then for the modest sum total of around $55,000 USD you are ahead of the grade 3 still hanging around Moorabbin doing TIF's.

Mind you don't expect paid a cent for being a first officer in your chosen jet. Once you hack that first 500 hours RH seat, the world is your oyster. Hopefully, that is.