Logbook a disgrace
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: VIC
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Logbook a disgrace
My logbook is a complete mess. Things crossed out, scribbled over, full of white-out, totals adjusted again and again for mistakes. Is this going to be a bad look for potential future employers? Should i start again and just tear out and stick the important pages in a new logbook?! Not sure the rules on this. Little help?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't change a thing. Present it exactly as it is at the next interview. You will be admired for your integrity if nothing else. If they see a new log book all nice and tidy it will arouse suspicion especially if some of the hours look a bit dodgy like excess instrument flight time verses flying hours.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yellow Brick Road
Posts: 1,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My logbook is a complete mess.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Isn't it true that since a logbook is a legal document then you are not allowed to use liquid paper to erase mistakes?
From the CASA website;
I disagree. It's akeen to showing up to an interview looking like a hobo. If you apply to an airline, what will they think of your professionalism as a pilot if you can't even write neatly in a logbook. It just begs the question of what you operate like as a professional pilot, if a simple thing like entering details into a logbook makes you look on par with a 5 year old using crayons in a colouring book.
I agree that you shouldn't start from scratch. Not sure if there is a legal issue with doing that.
From the CASA website;
Requirement to hold a log book
A pilot must keep a personal log book [Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 5.51]
A pilot must keep a personal log book [Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 5.51]
-
- A log book consists of a number of pages permanently bound together in such a way that pages may not be replaced or removed;
- An electronic record is not acceptable as a log book, however, a computer printout bound together in the form of a log book and maintained up to date is acceptable;
- All manual entries to the log book must be made in permanent ink;
- This log book is to be produced to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) when requested;
- Falsification of a log book is a criminal offence;
- There is no regulatory requirement to carry a personal log book on a flight.
You will be admired for your integrity if nothing else
I agree that you shouldn't start from scratch. Not sure if there is a legal issue with doing that.
Moderator
full of white-out
White out is a naughty no-no for any required records. If an alteration is required due error or whatever,
(a) put a line through the original, incorrect entry so that the original entry can still be read without difficulty but it is obvious what the corrected bits are
(b) enter the correct information
(c) sign the correction entry with DTG
Not so much a problem with pilot log books but pretty standard fare for maintenance records.
White out is a naughty no-no for any required records. If an alteration is required due error or whatever,
(a) put a line through the original, incorrect entry so that the original entry can still be read without difficulty but it is obvious what the corrected bits are
(b) enter the correct information
(c) sign the correction entry with DTG
Not so much a problem with pilot log books but pretty standard fare for maintenance records.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The beginning of my logbook (still on number 1) really looks like a dogs breakfast with cross outs and, I'm afraid to say, white out; but I didn't know any better then. However, when I started CPL training I decided that I should take better care of it and there's a marked improvement in the quality of my entries from then.
So my advice is: don't start again, just make a conscious effort to write nearly from now on. Employers usually only want to see the last few pages anyway, and even if they see the messy ones, they can then see that you've tried to improve it.
So my advice is: don't start again, just make a conscious effort to write nearly from now on. Employers usually only want to see the last few pages anyway, and even if they see the messy ones, they can then see that you've tried to improve it.
Moderator
White out is a no-no on legal docs. As are blank lines.
The amount of times I've heard "But my instructor said (??!!) I had to start a new page each month"...would you leave blank lines in any other legal document, that could be filled in later? eg Police statement? Offer on a house? etc It renders the monthly "log book correct" stamps invalid also if there is then room for another 20 or so Biro hours to be put in after.
Also if you start again you will need to get all the monthly stamps done again.
Better that students should be taught from day one that it is a legal document, the penalties for falsifying it and the requirement to keep it legible.
The amount of times I've heard "But my instructor said (??!!) I had to start a new page each month"...would you leave blank lines in any other legal document, that could be filled in later? eg Police statement? Offer on a house? etc It renders the monthly "log book correct" stamps invalid also if there is then room for another 20 or so Biro hours to be put in after.
Also if you start again you will need to get all the monthly stamps done again.
Better that students should be taught from day one that it is a legal document, the penalties for falsifying it and the requirement to keep it legible.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: VIC
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the responses.
Hmmm I have left about 3 lines at the end of each month with a summary below in red so no room for falsification, however used loads of whiteout due to a large error that could not be merely crossed out as the error flowed through my logbook requiring changes on every page (actually more than one error).
By the sounds of it an acceptable compromise would be to continue (neater from here on in) in my original logbook but transfer all hours to an electronic logbook and use bound printouts of that for interviews?
Hmmm I have left about 3 lines at the end of each month with a summary below in red so no room for falsification, however used loads of whiteout due to a large error that could not be merely crossed out as the error flowed through my logbook requiring changes on every page (actually more than one error).
By the sounds of it an acceptable compromise would be to continue (neater from here on in) in my original logbook but transfer all hours to an electronic logbook and use bound printouts of that for interviews?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: uk
Age: 62
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
electronic logs are acceptable, so get yourself something like log ten and input your current logs. you can then print your smart looking log book.
I would continue to run the electronic log alongside the paper version logging in the electronic version and then transferring regularly to the paper version. that way any mistakes are made on the computer.
I would continue to run the electronic log alongside the paper version logging in the electronic version and then transferring regularly to the paper version. that way any mistakes are made on the computer.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
electronic logs are acceptable
A log book consists of a number of pages permanently bound together in such a way that pages may not be replaced or removed
So I use the double method, Log Ten Pro for the real, useful, log book and the papyrus version for our ancient overlords.
Bottums Up
Originally Posted by CFI
White out is a no-no on legal docs. As are blank lines.
Guest
Posts: n/a
that guy - I had one of these made up. It may help.
pilot logbook cover
pilot logbook cover
I see nothing in the regs that says you can't use white out, or leave blank lines.
White out and blank lines do not constitute falsifying your logbook.
Let's keep this simple.
White out and blank lines do not constitute falsifying your logbook.
Let's keep this simple.
I would never argue with John Tullamarine however I often use white-out in my log-book. I also often simply cross an entry out. I never sign my logbook.
It is my logbook. It complies with the requirements.
Certainly some-one may challenge the whited out bit - no real reason to challenge that than any other entry.
Certainly there are other documents where I would never use white-out and never accept it from anyone else - typically where the document is used or provided to some-one else. Saves all sorts of arguments down the track.
One day I may convert to an electronic logbook. Of course, I'd never notice the mistakes until after I had printed and bound the pages so I would inadvertently end up with multiple logbooks with different entries in them.
It is my logbook. It complies with the requirements.
Certainly some-one may challenge the whited out bit - no real reason to challenge that than any other entry.
Certainly there are other documents where I would never use white-out and never accept it from anyone else - typically where the document is used or provided to some-one else. Saves all sorts of arguments down the track.
One day I may convert to an electronic logbook. Of course, I'd never notice the mistakes until after I had printed and bound the pages so I would inadvertently end up with multiple logbooks with different entries in them.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Australia
Age: 34
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At a certain flight school in NZ, if you do not leave a blank line between entries, the CP will get you a new logbook, and make you copy it all out again to their standards...happened right in front of me...
Safe to say, after I finished my CPL, I have gone to missing nothing!
Safe to say, after I finished my CPL, I have gone to missing nothing!
My log book started back when I was 15 so it varied in standard as I grew older. It even changed colour on some pages depending on where I was working (has a nice red/brown tinge for a good section of it). I have used white out and the red line through entries, I have tried filling all the spaces and tried one page a month. CASA have gone through my log book with all these things and the only issue they had was me forgetting to put the 0 in before a decimal place (eg 0.5, not .5). It has also passed 3 interviews without comment (accept for the usual 'yep flown that, and that, and is that still flying?').
Having your logbook signed off seems like a flying school thing as I have never seen it done anywhere else, or had anyone care that it wasn't done (including CASA). I suppose they figure if you are going to fake hours then you will probably fake the signature anyway.
Currently I find that running my log book on excel first makes adding it up easier and also helps to prevent errors, I try and use the same pen each time (helps to keep it a bit neater), and normally fill it in every month or so in one go. Some pilots have a thing about taking their log book in their nav bags, however having had my bag stolen I leave the book at home.
For future entries I would recommend sitting down and carefully filling your logbook in so that you don't have as many errors, as some of the other posts have said, they tend to only look at the last few pages anyway. I normally go with one month a page, on average that gives me about 2-3 lines free (useful if you have missed an entry or need to put in a totals correction), on quiet months I will squeeze in 2.
I would certainly recommend starting up a digital copy, even so that if you loose a logbook or it gets destroyed you have a copy of all your flying. It is also useful for figuring out time on type and other hard to add up hrs.
Having your logbook signed off seems like a flying school thing as I have never seen it done anywhere else, or had anyone care that it wasn't done (including CASA). I suppose they figure if you are going to fake hours then you will probably fake the signature anyway.
Currently I find that running my log book on excel first makes adding it up easier and also helps to prevent errors, I try and use the same pen each time (helps to keep it a bit neater), and normally fill it in every month or so in one go. Some pilots have a thing about taking their log book in their nav bags, however having had my bag stolen I leave the book at home.
For future entries I would recommend sitting down and carefully filling your logbook in so that you don't have as many errors, as some of the other posts have said, they tend to only look at the last few pages anyway. I normally go with one month a page, on average that gives me about 2-3 lines free (useful if you have missed an entry or need to put in a totals correction), on quiet months I will squeeze in 2.
I would certainly recommend starting up a digital copy, even so that if you loose a logbook or it gets destroyed you have a copy of all your flying. It is also useful for figuring out time on type and other hard to add up hrs.
