Is Ag. Flying considered a poor career choice?
Sprucegoose
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I would argue operating a turbine is easier than operating a piston, especially a radial! 
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The problem is not the engine operation, more so the dramatic increase in aircraft size and speed that comes with a turbine.
5' AGL and max performance turns at 100 kts in a 2 tonne husky V 130 kts in a 5 tonne 502 that has twice the physical dimensions. Think starting in a B200 without flying a Baron first.
5' AGL and max performance turns at 100 kts in a 2 tonne husky V 130 kts in a 5 tonne 502 that has twice the physical dimensions. Think starting in a B200 without flying a Baron first.
As above plus the insurance issue of putting a newbie in an expensive bit of kit. Also Ag 2's have a tendency to bend things, a bent Ag Wagon can be overcome and the productive loss taken up by the larger machines in the operators inventory. Bend a turbine during a busy period and likely you will lose customers to your opposition as the clients work won't wait till you source a replacement.
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Thanks for the responses, guys!
I'd probably be more likely to look to work as an engineer and look to get licensed on the aircraft. That not only gives me a fall back qualification but I would guess would make me more employable. I'd likely only consider flying as a career in the medium to long term and in the right circumstances. What those circumstances will be I don't know; I guess I'll know when the time comes.
I'll get on to AAAA some time in the next week or two. Honestly, my current employer pays me rather well, but career progression will be horrifically slow and the way the employer is run, one is expected to pretty much not have a life or family outside of work.
Cheers,
John
I'd probably be more likely to look to work as an engineer and look to get licensed on the aircraft. That not only gives me a fall back qualification but I would guess would make me more employable. I'd likely only consider flying as a career in the medium to long term and in the right circumstances. What those circumstances will be I don't know; I guess I'll know when the time comes.
I'll get on to AAAA some time in the next week or two. Honestly, my current employer pays me rather well, but career progression will be horrifically slow and the way the employer is run, one is expected to pretty much not have a life or family outside of work.
Cheers,
John
Vincent,
Next time an experienced ag pilot tells me there are only a few companies out there that would start me on a piston do I tell he he is full of it?
Maybe you can let me know who all these companies are who will let a newbie have a go in a piston ag plane? You don't have to name them. Just a number of how many.
Cheers
Next time an experienced ag pilot tells me there are only a few companies out there that would start me on a piston do I tell he he is full of it?
Maybe you can let me know who all these companies are who will let a newbie have a go in a piston ag plane? You don't have to name them. Just a number of how many.
Cheers
Last edited by pilotchute; 5th Jan 2014 at 15:39.
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pilotchute,
the answer to your question is most probably yes.
are you saying you gave up because your first loading gig did not get you a seat?
How do you think the rest of us got started?
Really sorry it did not work out for you.
the answer to your question is most probably yes.
are you saying you gave up because your first loading gig did not get you a seat?
How do you think the rest of us got started?
Really sorry it did not work out for you.
Currawong,
I could only go on the info given to me by Ag pilots I had met. If a guy who is doing the job tells me that getting a seat will take you upwards of 4 years I will quit whilst I'm ahead.
It is not a lack of enthusiasm just being realistic. I didn't want to still be mixing when I was 30.
I could only go on the info given to me by Ag pilots I had met. If a guy who is doing the job tells me that getting a seat will take you upwards of 4 years I will quit whilst I'm ahead.
It is not a lack of enthusiasm just being realistic. I didn't want to still be mixing when I was 30.
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Realistically,
An Ag 2 working as a mixer is in the holding pattern.
On the spot, ready to go, if not with that operator then with whoever else is hiring.
There are different approaches. Some might say "come load for us and we will have a look at you" or "load for us this season and we will give you your first 100 hours" or "seat is primarily flying but some loading involved"
Many different variations on a theme.
Often involves changing jobs to upgrade/increase experience - just like the rest of aviation...
An Ag 2 working as a mixer is in the holding pattern.
On the spot, ready to go, if not with that operator then with whoever else is hiring.
There are different approaches. Some might say "come load for us and we will have a look at you" or "load for us this season and we will give you your first 100 hours" or "seat is primarily flying but some loading involved"
Many different variations on a theme.
Often involves changing jobs to upgrade/increase experience - just like the rest of aviation...
you wouldn't want to be flying under wires in a fully laden 802 in high winds
My brief foray into the ag industry was an eye opener. Toxic stuff incorrectly handled, leaking and half used drums of stuff left to rust in the sun, chemicals stored next to waterways, I could go on and on.
Go on boys, put your crap out in high winds, dump your toxic stuff with nary a care then go home. Its just the countryside right?
Now I know there are some good operators out there, but damn there are some cowboys too!
Now just hang on a sec-Speaking as a farmer, if the conditions aren't suited to aerial application (high winds etc), why on earth would I go and waste a hell of a lot of my money on a spraying job? This stuff that we are supposedly spraying around indiscriminately costs a fair bit of coin to apply.
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there are some good operators out there, but damn there are some cowboys too!
Just out of curiosity, Aussie Bob, when was your brief foray in ag? The reason I ask is because I'm looking to get out of the airlines as an engineer into regional, GA or ag and I'm wondering if the AAAA has helped fix things up in the ag industry or not.
Cheers,
John
My foray in ag was as a mixer in the early '90s. The operator I worked for was credible, competent and is still alive and still operating.
The poor chemical handling I witnessed was mostly the farmers, and I mean no offense, Desert Goat, I am a dairy farmers boy. Just the way it was and still is in places. Some of the ag pilots I meet just need to get the job done and move on, again, just the way it is and its definitely not for me.
Currently my only part in ag is ferrying the odd cropduster about the countryside.
The poor chemical handling I witnessed was mostly the farmers, and I mean no offense, Desert Goat, I am a dairy farmers boy. Just the way it was and still is in places. Some of the ag pilots I meet just need to get the job done and move on, again, just the way it is and its definitely not for me.
Currently my only part in ag is ferrying the odd cropduster about the countryside.
Aussie bob,
Sadly there is an element of truth in what you have stated, all be it small, but i would like to counter somewhat as it is a bit of an exaggeration and contains a few misconceptions.
802's aren't flown under wires, they don't fit as a rule. Also the optimum height for spray applications for the likes of M18's and 802's is about wire height. It is all about sedimentation velocity of the chosen droplet size and the influence the aircraft has on the spray pattern.
It is important to understand the relationship between drift and wind. When conducting an application over a crop with a canopy as opposed to bare soil, as a general rule the stronger the wind the less drift.
Sounds counter intuitive but it is factual, the wind creates swirling eddies over the crop that drive the spray through the crop, the result is more spray droplets having an opportunity to come into contact with the plant foliage. Light winds often result in greater off target product drift. Anything less than a 3 kt breeze and you stop and wait until it improves the loss of effectiveness is clearly visible with herbicides under light breezes. There is a qualifier here though, whilst there is less quantity of chemical that drifts off target in strong winds the smaller amount that does can drift further as the water carrier (if water based) evaporates and leaves a fine dry particle of chemical. The other advantage of a strong wind say 15 to 25 kts is that the direction of drift will be easily determined as such it makes planning a job with regard to downwind sensitive areas much more accurate. Light winds tend to waft about in direction and makes the job tricky when working around sensitive areas.
I spent 7 years as an Ag Pilot (left in 03) I came into the industry with a very high standard of environmental awareness and ethics, some may say I border on being a greeny, fair enough. I must say during my time i did see a few things that made me cringe but on the whole I was very proud of the environmental standards adopted by the industry, rarely (but not never) was i put under pressure to bend environmental standards. Although my time was in the southern regions and not on cotton I was impressed the most by the guys who worked the cotton crops. It may not have always been a personal green bent they possessed but by hell 90% were **** scared of a drift claim and would be extremely reluctant to take a risk. If there was a weak link sadly I would have to say it was the mixer crews who were a little slap happy, but their lot falls under the pilots responsibility to some extent so pilots would try to educate the guys, but it is always a balancing act as the ground guys do work hard for little thanks so you can't ride them too hard.
I can confidently imagine in the 10 years I have been out of it that standards have continued to improve from what was already a high standard and that the AAAA's continues to drive the message of high standards and worlds best methods that it always had. The industry was nearly killed off in the mid 80's by cowboys, they learnt the hard way, from that point, the turnaround was impressive.
No one is a fan of pesticides at a simplistic level, an old boss once said,... "I only know one latin word, cide, it means death". But without them yield/area would be down so more area would be needed to produce the same amount. In the history of pesticides there is as i am aware no recorded loss of species attributed to them. There is however a very long and sobering list of extinction attributed to loss of habitat.
If you don't like pesticides and I don't either, then support population control. To quote David Suzuki...."what ever your cause it is a lost cause without population control"
Sadly there is an element of truth in what you have stated, all be it small, but i would like to counter somewhat as it is a bit of an exaggeration and contains a few misconceptions.
you wouldn't want to be flying under wires in a fully laden 802 in high winds
It is important to understand the relationship between drift and wind. When conducting an application over a crop with a canopy as opposed to bare soil, as a general rule the stronger the wind the less drift.
Sounds counter intuitive but it is factual, the wind creates swirling eddies over the crop that drive the spray through the crop, the result is more spray droplets having an opportunity to come into contact with the plant foliage. Light winds often result in greater off target product drift. Anything less than a 3 kt breeze and you stop and wait until it improves the loss of effectiveness is clearly visible with herbicides under light breezes. There is a qualifier here though, whilst there is less quantity of chemical that drifts off target in strong winds the smaller amount that does can drift further as the water carrier (if water based) evaporates and leaves a fine dry particle of chemical. The other advantage of a strong wind say 15 to 25 kts is that the direction of drift will be easily determined as such it makes planning a job with regard to downwind sensitive areas much more accurate. Light winds tend to waft about in direction and makes the job tricky when working around sensitive areas.
I spent 7 years as an Ag Pilot (left in 03) I came into the industry with a very high standard of environmental awareness and ethics, some may say I border on being a greeny, fair enough. I must say during my time i did see a few things that made me cringe but on the whole I was very proud of the environmental standards adopted by the industry, rarely (but not never) was i put under pressure to bend environmental standards. Although my time was in the southern regions and not on cotton I was impressed the most by the guys who worked the cotton crops. It may not have always been a personal green bent they possessed but by hell 90% were **** scared of a drift claim and would be extremely reluctant to take a risk. If there was a weak link sadly I would have to say it was the mixer crews who were a little slap happy, but their lot falls under the pilots responsibility to some extent so pilots would try to educate the guys, but it is always a balancing act as the ground guys do work hard for little thanks so you can't ride them too hard.
I can confidently imagine in the 10 years I have been out of it that standards have continued to improve from what was already a high standard and that the AAAA's continues to drive the message of high standards and worlds best methods that it always had. The industry was nearly killed off in the mid 80's by cowboys, they learnt the hard way, from that point, the turnaround was impressive.
No one is a fan of pesticides at a simplistic level, an old boss once said,... "I only know one latin word, cide, it means death". But without them yield/area would be down so more area would be needed to produce the same amount. In the history of pesticides there is as i am aware no recorded loss of species attributed to them. There is however a very long and sobering list of extinction attributed to loss of habitat.
If you don't like pesticides and I don't either, then support population control. To quote David Suzuki...."what ever your cause it is a lost cause without population control"
Last edited by Obidiah; 10th Jan 2014 at 00:33.
then go and do your Ag rating. Will cost between 15 and 20k.
Quote:
then go and do your Ag rating. Will cost between 15 and 20k.
You can get a command type rating on a 737 for less than that in USA. Transferable into an Australian CPL, no problem.
then go and do your Ag rating. Will cost between 15 and 20k.
You can get a command type rating on a 737 for less than that in USA. Transferable into an Australian CPL, no problem.
Thanks to all the experienced ag pilots who have posted in this thread, there is a lot of useful information here.