Is Ag. Flying considered a poor career choice?
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Gday
Im CPL, about 650-700TT, Pretty keen on going AG. One major obsticle. Im sick of being remote. Is it possible to do Ag, starting out and once consolidated and live in a decent town with pubs and women and all the fun stuff?
Im CPL, about 650-700TT, Pretty keen on going AG. One major obsticle. Im sick of being remote. Is it possible to do Ag, starting out and once consolidated and live in a decent town with pubs and women and all the fun stuff?
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Hey Birdog,
There are some Ag bases in towns that don't meet your criteria, but plenty that do. You may find, like others have, that you can live where you like and just go and do the busy seasons at these remote places. Now things have picked up again you can make a pretty good wage in four months, then spend the rest of the year sitting on the beach!
There are some Ag bases in towns that don't meet your criteria, but plenty that do. You may find, like others have, that you can live where you like and just go and do the busy seasons at these remote places. Now things have picked up again you can make a pretty good wage in four months, then spend the rest of the year sitting on the beach!
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Ag Flyiing in Aus
A lot of these threads seem to be centered around Money.If that is your only goal i think you are doing it for the wrong reason.I believe it is a accident waiting to happen.Iam in this job for the long haul and iam in my 35 year.Love the job ,has given me great experiences around the world.I have been through recessions and good times.Take a average over 10 years for example and the average wont be 100k.Also there a lot of good jobs at times in piston type A/C,Your location can have bearing on the type of job which your family could be dissadvantaged and some locations suit the family better.
Signed Fletch
Signed Fletch
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I recently studied Ag flying for my aviation medicine course, and you can talk to the pro's of course. Its regarded as a pretty tough and demanding way to make a buck, especially in the heat of the Australian non winter..
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Pedro - In response my reply wasn,t money based, just to show a young pilot in good times alls not lost. Theres been many times where i have given up on an industry i believed would support myself and family. I was mistaken. Drought, economic times and 6 years ago in Aus anyway an over supply of Ag Pilots. This is no longer the case. I became very disgruntalled being told season after season they,d love to have me back. (Loading). But no position. So i did the hard yards. It paid off. Enough said.
C185 - Yes its been a very very long road. ! Can,t believe i,m still here.
C185 - Yes its been a very very long road. ! Can,t believe i,m still here.
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Hey McGrath,
In my opinion, just get involved.
You could have ten years experience flying 210s up North, you will still have to do your 'apprenticeship' mixing then start again at the bottom in Ag.
In two or three years time the job prospect market may have changed dramatically too.
My advice is if you think you might be keen just jump in boots and all.
Good luck.
In my opinion, just get involved.
You could have ten years experience flying 210s up North, you will still have to do your 'apprenticeship' mixing then start again at the bottom in Ag.
In two or three years time the job prospect market may have changed dramatically too.
My advice is if you think you might be keen just jump in boots and all.
Good luck.
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People need to be aware that , although experienced Ag' pilots are harder to find now than in previous years , it doesn't mean fresh CPL holders looking to build time toward an airline career should think about an Ag Rating.
Meto Man said it well , they are two very different disciplines with very limited cross overs in skills .
I would also be very wary telling prospective pilots they will be flying turbine powered machines with less than 500 hours Ag ( plus your CPL etc ) , this would be the exception rather than the rule by a country mile .
For starters no insurance Co. will touch you (the operator MAY elect to forgo cover ) , however perhaps more importantly a low hour pilot flying turbines in Ag operations is usually a recipe for disaster of some sort and few responsible operators will do so .
Certainly if you are seriously considering Ag' as a career a season or two of loading will show what it's all about and you can make an informed decision whilst meeting some great people in locations most city dwellers will never see.
Meto Man said it well , they are two very different disciplines with very limited cross overs in skills .
I would also be very wary telling prospective pilots they will be flying turbine powered machines with less than 500 hours Ag ( plus your CPL etc ) , this would be the exception rather than the rule by a country mile .
For starters no insurance Co. will touch you (the operator MAY elect to forgo cover ) , however perhaps more importantly a low hour pilot flying turbines in Ag operations is usually a recipe for disaster of some sort and few responsible operators will do so .
Certainly if you are seriously considering Ag' as a career a season or two of loading will show what it's all about and you can make an informed decision whilst meeting some great people in locations most city dwellers will never see.
...your Ag rating. Will cost between 15 and 20k
plucka, what training do you get for the 20K ?
I geuss a year or two mixing will give yer the basics re chemicals/fert/seeding. What trainings involved in the flying part ?
.
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Hey Binghi,
The flying training is 40hrs comprised of both dual and solo. Some training places have dual controlled Ag planes, some use 180s and 185s for the dual and a single seat Ag plane for the solo.
From memory we started by doing alot of 500ft stalls in turns, then went through to flying overloaded aircraft, dumping, application techniques and use of the gps for tracking.
There is alot to learn and and alot to unlearn as it is quite different from nearly all other aspects of aviation.
The flying training is 40hrs comprised of both dual and solo. Some training places have dual controlled Ag planes, some use 180s and 185s for the dual and a single seat Ag plane for the solo.
From memory we started by doing alot of 500ft stalls in turns, then went through to flying overloaded aircraft, dumping, application techniques and use of the gps for tracking.
There is alot to learn and and alot to unlearn as it is quite different from nearly all other aspects of aviation.
Fondair,
in simple terms:
Agplanes take stuff where people want it put.
Mixers/loaders make sure that the "stuff" is the correct product for that particular job etc.
Product can be liquid or solid(granular or powder)
They ensure the correct amount goes into the machine.
They make sure turnarounds are quick and efficient, allowing the machine to be out making money.
Spending time as a mixer/loader before becoming an ag-pilot, would and should be considered an essential part of becoming a well rounded operator.
Some may beg to differ, I am sure.
185.
in simple terms:
Agplanes take stuff where people want it put.
Mixers/loaders make sure that the "stuff" is the correct product for that particular job etc.
Product can be liquid or solid(granular or powder)
They ensure the correct amount goes into the machine.
They make sure turnarounds are quick and efficient, allowing the machine to be out making money.
Spending time as a mixer/loader before becoming an ag-pilot, would and should be considered an essential part of becoming a well rounded operator.
Some may beg to differ, I am sure.
185.
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WoW!!!
pilots who actually want to get INTO ag.....who'd a thunk it.
I think that the main consideration is whether this is the career that you really really want to get into. If you are keen and dont mind a bit of traveling for the first few years, then GO FOR IT !!!
If you think that this is just another stepping stone then whoa boy... this really might not be for you. long ( and I mean waaaaay long....) hours every week. before daylight til long after dark, even all night. you smell bad , get covered in mud dust and unmentionable stuff, do heaps of driving, have to stay in pubs with other, often liver damaged, Ag pilots and the girlies do not find you even as attractive as a jetstar 1st officer. You do not have to like C&W music, but it seems to help, as that is often the only thing on the juke box. Ag is a career choice, even a short career (5 - 10 years) will require significant investment in money (to get started) and from there on iit is mainly blood sweat tears and divorce, so there is an up side.
There are many good aspects:
Stuff the noodles....steak and chips every night.
Your really are an elite pilot. these flight skills are way beyond what you can imagine. it is a club of exclusive fellowship where only those who have been on the inside can understand the realities of these operations. That is why often a good way of getting a seat is to do some mixing or loading to get a paid insight into this world.
Mixing and Loading:
Not surprised that this does not google well. again due to the closed nature of this industry those in the know are aware of what these terms mean. Loading/Mixing is a duty that is the lowest rung into a single seat cockpit of a 1500hp ag plane. It mainly involves all the things referred to earlier in this post, except you get up earlier (yes even earlier) than the pilot(s) and often get to bed later (read very very late), as well as doing huge amounts of driving it is your responsibility to do the following,
Mixer- service truck/pickup, refill avgas/avtur drums, go to depot to collect the correct type and quantity of agricultural chemicals, load them on the truck/pickup. Tow a tanker/mixer trailer over dirt roads that turn to grease with a sprinkle of rain to find a water source from which you can pump the tanker full and locate to the 'strip'. when on site and in the correct optimal loading position (many variables too hard to explain there) you can then suit up and carefully mix the 'toxic cocktail' ( thank you 4 corners) from the selection of drums that you have. you must exactly mix the correct ratios and quantities to meet the area to be covered at a specific rate, divided by the size of the load to be carried each flight, multiplied by the total number of flights. stuff this up and you can cause a lot of grief (again to complicated to go into). then you pump the correct amopunt into the aircraft hopper while it sits on the pad with the engine idling (pockta-pocketa piston, or screaming garret turbine). you move into the aircraft while it is still rolling like a formula one pit crew member to connect the QR coupling, pump in the chemicals and top off with water to the level the pilot indicates whilst rinsing the mix tank, close all relevant, valves, disconnect the coupling at the plane and wave the pilot off while you get sand blasted by the prop wash. Oh, I forgot, you also will clean the pilot's windscreen (vertical strokes) and possibly top off fuel as well during the loading process. In fact you are a one man pit crew. while the aircraft is away, 'having fun' you will check to B&S for fuel and oil, comp and measure the next load of chemicals, replenish the water tank, triple rinse, crush and stow empty drums, listen to the CB, keep a SAR watch on your plane, and eat your curling sangas with tea from your stanley stainless steel thermos.
Loading ( of granulated and prilled solids) s different, you need a truck license and must be either a hard working fantastic front end loader driver with a good eye and heaps of common sense who pays attention to exactly what the pilot wants and is good with a spade, or you are an utter imbecile. these seem to be the only two options.
Ag is not for those who want to stick their toe in the ...air. it is about as full on a flying job as there is. Every day something different, well maybe not every day, but enough to not become boring, and the flying to the absolute margins of performance ability and economy. Every take off is max performance, if it isn't you are bludging and losing commission. I have waxed lyrical in other threads about some of the speccy things that you will do and see, but you really have to go there to understand.
If you always wanted to do it, this is about as good a time as any, get out there and start mixing and saving $$..... and look forward to the next drought and bust, but by then you may well be an established pilot with one of the better full time jobs.
pilots who actually want to get INTO ag.....who'd a thunk it.
I think that the main consideration is whether this is the career that you really really want to get into. If you are keen and dont mind a bit of traveling for the first few years, then GO FOR IT !!!
If you think that this is just another stepping stone then whoa boy... this really might not be for you. long ( and I mean waaaaay long....) hours every week. before daylight til long after dark, even all night. you smell bad , get covered in mud dust and unmentionable stuff, do heaps of driving, have to stay in pubs with other, often liver damaged, Ag pilots and the girlies do not find you even as attractive as a jetstar 1st officer. You do not have to like C&W music, but it seems to help, as that is often the only thing on the juke box. Ag is a career choice, even a short career (5 - 10 years) will require significant investment in money (to get started) and from there on iit is mainly blood sweat tears and divorce, so there is an up side.
There are many good aspects:
Stuff the noodles....steak and chips every night.
Your really are an elite pilot. these flight skills are way beyond what you can imagine. it is a club of exclusive fellowship where only those who have been on the inside can understand the realities of these operations. That is why often a good way of getting a seat is to do some mixing or loading to get a paid insight into this world.
Mixing and Loading:
Not surprised that this does not google well. again due to the closed nature of this industry those in the know are aware of what these terms mean. Loading/Mixing is a duty that is the lowest rung into a single seat cockpit of a 1500hp ag plane. It mainly involves all the things referred to earlier in this post, except you get up earlier (yes even earlier) than the pilot(s) and often get to bed later (read very very late), as well as doing huge amounts of driving it is your responsibility to do the following,
Mixer- service truck/pickup, refill avgas/avtur drums, go to depot to collect the correct type and quantity of agricultural chemicals, load them on the truck/pickup. Tow a tanker/mixer trailer over dirt roads that turn to grease with a sprinkle of rain to find a water source from which you can pump the tanker full and locate to the 'strip'. when on site and in the correct optimal loading position (many variables too hard to explain there) you can then suit up and carefully mix the 'toxic cocktail' ( thank you 4 corners) from the selection of drums that you have. you must exactly mix the correct ratios and quantities to meet the area to be covered at a specific rate, divided by the size of the load to be carried each flight, multiplied by the total number of flights. stuff this up and you can cause a lot of grief (again to complicated to go into). then you pump the correct amopunt into the aircraft hopper while it sits on the pad with the engine idling (pockta-pocketa piston, or screaming garret turbine). you move into the aircraft while it is still rolling like a formula one pit crew member to connect the QR coupling, pump in the chemicals and top off with water to the level the pilot indicates whilst rinsing the mix tank, close all relevant, valves, disconnect the coupling at the plane and wave the pilot off while you get sand blasted by the prop wash. Oh, I forgot, you also will clean the pilot's windscreen (vertical strokes) and possibly top off fuel as well during the loading process. In fact you are a one man pit crew. while the aircraft is away, 'having fun' you will check to B&S for fuel and oil, comp and measure the next load of chemicals, replenish the water tank, triple rinse, crush and stow empty drums, listen to the CB, keep a SAR watch on your plane, and eat your curling sangas with tea from your stanley stainless steel thermos.
Loading ( of granulated and prilled solids) s different, you need a truck license and must be either a hard working fantastic front end loader driver with a good eye and heaps of common sense who pays attention to exactly what the pilot wants and is good with a spade, or you are an utter imbecile. these seem to be the only two options.
Ag is not for those who want to stick their toe in the ...air. it is about as full on a flying job as there is. Every day something different, well maybe not every day, but enough to not become boring, and the flying to the absolute margins of performance ability and economy. Every take off is max performance, if it isn't you are bludging and losing commission. I have waxed lyrical in other threads about some of the speccy things that you will do and see, but you really have to go there to understand.
If you always wanted to do it, this is about as good a time as any, get out there and start mixing and saving $$..... and look forward to the next drought and bust, but by then you may well be an established pilot with one of the better full time jobs.
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Absolutely outstanding post Harley D.
Spot on.
One other point about ag flying; I always felt it was more about the ag bit than the flying bit....ie understanding farming and the farmers needs and using the aircraft as another agricultural tool like a combine harvester or tractor.
I also believe the skills aquired in this field are no burden whatsoever to carry into any other aspect of aviation, including airline flying where I now earn my steak n chips.
Cheers
Spot on.
One other point about ag flying; I always felt it was more about the ag bit than the flying bit....ie understanding farming and the farmers needs and using the aircraft as another agricultural tool like a combine harvester or tractor.
I also believe the skills aquired in this field are no burden whatsoever to carry into any other aspect of aviation, including airline flying where I now earn my steak n chips.
Cheers
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Just thought i would put in my two cents worth. I grew up in northern NSW on a cotton farm and after school went mixing and marking for a ag company for a couple months. After flight school i was determined to get my ag rating and do that for a carrer. Before i started the ag training my father called me and said he had just spoken to aan ag pilot. He had told my father that i should try to get into the airline business while iam young and said if by the time your 30 and you still want to be an ag pilot go for it.
Iam now 30 and although i still envy the ag pilots and where they get to live and the fun of polling the a/c around, i have to say as a lifestyle, pay etc.. the airline flying is in my opinion the better option. For me i have had my fun flying around in places like PNG, Cambodia and Solomon Islands and as you get older i think as i mentioned lifestyle is the main factor.
Anyway thats just my opinion i still think ag flying would be great though
Iam now 30 and although i still envy the ag pilots and where they get to live and the fun of polling the a/c around, i have to say as a lifestyle, pay etc.. the airline flying is in my opinion the better option. For me i have had my fun flying around in places like PNG, Cambodia and Solomon Islands and as you get older i think as i mentioned lifestyle is the main factor.
Anyway thats just my opinion i still think ag flying would be great though
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To any budding aggy out there Harley has it right enough and I have the following to add:
In pre-GPS days we used to charge by the acre and Farmer Brown would roll up with a mud map if we were lucky or a vague description if we weren't but in either case there was the temptation to undervalue the size of the area being treated. All calculations were done by the loady and one could allow for discrepancies if he knew his customer well enough.
We sometimes started so early in the morning in a new location we went without breakfast or the ability to get anything for later on, not even drinks. So, on occasion, we'd go all day with nothing to eat or drink and finally get to the pub after dark, drop a couple of schooners of Tooheys New down and crash off without having anything to eat and do the same thing next day at dawn. Even drunk water straight out of a murky dam.
Another thing is the stink. Some months ago one of our bretheren in the Rotary Forum wrote of the stink of the chemicals in our clothes. The only protective gear we had was cotton overalls and elbow length gloves. After it all came off we still stank after a shower and our boots were impregnated with it. Such was the nature of the beast back then.
Another thing was the camloc hose fittings; they were good but not infallible. As the aircraft rolled up we wasted no time and ran in toward the connector and plugged her in and snapped the camlocs home but we had to ensure we turned the right taps on/off in the correct sequence. If we didn't we risked pressure from the pump forcing the camlocs open. Didn't take long to work that one out.
Where possible we operated out of tankers but there were a few times when we drew water directly out of dams for livestock. A risky operation that always left me on edge should any chemical be drawn into the dam.
Then after it was all over, the smaller jobs anyway, it was time to collect payment. It was not uncommon for Farmers Brown to hang around watching things but seemed to disappear at the end of the day. Payment was usually made at the pub if that happened. Dogs. Working dogs were okay if they were on the back of a farmers ute but on one occasion some bystander brought his German Shepard along and it took a dislike to the shining propellor each time the aircraft approached despite a few blunt words of advice. Animals need to be away from aircraft.
I suspect advice given earlier in this thread about ag flying being very separate from airline flying is even more true today. If you've got your heart set on airlines then follow the airlines path, the ag path is a very separate one indeed.
In pre-GPS days we used to charge by the acre and Farmer Brown would roll up with a mud map if we were lucky or a vague description if we weren't but in either case there was the temptation to undervalue the size of the area being treated. All calculations were done by the loady and one could allow for discrepancies if he knew his customer well enough.
We sometimes started so early in the morning in a new location we went without breakfast or the ability to get anything for later on, not even drinks. So, on occasion, we'd go all day with nothing to eat or drink and finally get to the pub after dark, drop a couple of schooners of Tooheys New down and crash off without having anything to eat and do the same thing next day at dawn. Even drunk water straight out of a murky dam.
Another thing is the stink. Some months ago one of our bretheren in the Rotary Forum wrote of the stink of the chemicals in our clothes. The only protective gear we had was cotton overalls and elbow length gloves. After it all came off we still stank after a shower and our boots were impregnated with it. Such was the nature of the beast back then.
Another thing was the camloc hose fittings; they were good but not infallible. As the aircraft rolled up we wasted no time and ran in toward the connector and plugged her in and snapped the camlocs home but we had to ensure we turned the right taps on/off in the correct sequence. If we didn't we risked pressure from the pump forcing the camlocs open. Didn't take long to work that one out.
Where possible we operated out of tankers but there were a few times when we drew water directly out of dams for livestock. A risky operation that always left me on edge should any chemical be drawn into the dam.
Then after it was all over, the smaller jobs anyway, it was time to collect payment. It was not uncommon for Farmers Brown to hang around watching things but seemed to disappear at the end of the day. Payment was usually made at the pub if that happened. Dogs. Working dogs were okay if they were on the back of a farmers ute but on one occasion some bystander brought his German Shepard along and it took a dislike to the shining propellor each time the aircraft approached despite a few blunt words of advice. Animals need to be away from aircraft.
I suspect advice given earlier in this thread about ag flying being very separate from airline flying is even more true today. If you've got your heart set on airlines then follow the airlines path, the ag path is a very separate one indeed.
Last edited by osmosis; 8th Jul 2011 at 02:33. Reason: spelling, grammar