"CUT-LUNCH" Circuits....Or 'Minor Cross Country's'..
Thread Starter
"CUT-LUNCH" Circuits....Or 'Minor Cross Country's'..
For those Flight Instructors who persist in flying a "Cut-Lunch" circuit, and costing the rest of us HEAP$$!!!!
Have a good look at this....
CHEERS
Have a good look at this....
CHEERS
Beautiful! It's so true. My favourite combination of idiocy belongs to those RHS 5 stripe hour builders, who teach their students not only to fly the pattern around the periphery of the class D zone but also do so at minimum airspeed. ATC willing (and able - not always possible), you can generally fly a nice wide 120 kt circuit INSIDE them - FFS it's an itty bitty little airplane, not a 747!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: back of the crew bus
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice video, I particularly liked the 10 stripes per side (gotta do that soon at work)... but... our hero does not appear to be wearing a shoulder harness! What's that about...
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 62
Posts: 984
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know a DHC 8 aint a lighty, buts what's with the 747 circuits they fly at Tamworth? You cannot tell me that one needs to fly a circuit that large to land a DHC 8!
Should be mandatory viewing for everyone doing instructor courses.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: in the country
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Should be mandatory viewing for everyone doing instructor courses
Been using this video during I.R. training for a while now. I love the way the number of bars keeps growing everytime they show the dude.
I think half the problem is with the juniors that normally end up teaching this lesson are flat out trying to keep up with what the student is doing and what the traffic is doing while trying to monitor what's going on with the radio.
By time they have pattered to trim for S&L on crosswind before turning downwind they have flown a 4 mile leg.
It's up to the CFIs and mentoring senior instructors who should remedy this problem.
Just my two bobs worth
In-cog
I think half the problem is with the juniors that normally end up teaching this lesson are flat out trying to keep up with what the student is doing and what the traffic is doing while trying to monitor what's going on with the radio.
By time they have pattered to trim for S&L on crosswind before turning downwind they have flown a 4 mile leg.
It's up to the CFIs and mentoring senior instructors who should remedy this problem.
Just my two bobs worth
In-cog
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Asleep on a bench
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain,
They're the same circuits we fly anywhere else. 1500 foot circuits 'cos that's what the rules say, 30 seconds past the threshold, turn base aiming for about a 800-1000 foot gate as you turn final depending on where you're at on the profile. The final gate is that you have to be stable by 500 feet.
You're right, the Dash aint a 747, but we have these things called an FDR and EGPWS. If we make our circuits too small there's too much risk we end up getting squawked at by the EGPWS (sink rate, sink rate!), or someone gives us a call a few weeks later to say we busted stable approach parameters and for that we will be punished. It's actually really easy to bust these parameters, particularly in the Q400 because it goes a bit quicker in the circuit than the 200/300. Things like vertical speed no more than -1000 fpm, airspeed Vref to Vref plus 20 and so on. If you think about it, we can be doing sometimes up to 160 knots groundspeed on base (with a bit of tailwind), so for a 3 degree path that's about 800 fpm descent. If you're high you're going to bust the 1000 fpm restriction pretty easily so it makes sense to give yourself some room to re-intercept the vertical path gently. The other thing is that because you are going reasonably quickly around the circuit you don't have a lot of time to make lateral adjustments as required. You need to be on the money every time. Also, power: if you are off the vertical path a power adjustment might be required. With around 5000 hp per engine (on the Q400) it doesn't take much to see your airspeed go racing away or a big balloon going on, particularly with flaps fully extended.
And then, if you do have to go around for whatever reason, the performance of the aircraft means you have arms legs flying around all over the place getting re-configured while trying to stay ahead of the aircraft. The performance of the Q400 in particular is pretty awesome, and we can be back into the circuit in no time flat. But at night time, in average weather the challenge levels increase significantly. To cut a long story short, we don't want to end up in a situation where you have to go around. Don't get me wrong, a missed approach is not really a big deal but there is more risk in having to do a missed approach than there is in just getting the approach nailed the first time.
So as it is, I would suggest it's a reasonable challenge for the average pilot to land one of these things without busting the parameters. Indeed I remember my first attempt when I was training; it was a complete balls up!
Hence the large circuits.
I'm with you though; if we could I would much rather throw it around like a smaller aircraft, particularly now that I am pretty comfortable with the aircraft, but it's just not practical. It just is not a light aircraft anymore. The control responsiveness is not the same and you are dealing with much more inertia. Furthermore we have to do things in a way that is consistent and allows pilots of all experience levels and abilities a reasonable chance of achieving a safe approach. For newbies on the aircraft the circuit can still be quite a challenge.
If I haven't explained it well here I apologise. It's something I do think about often though, as I am sure people do wonder what is going on, particularly when there are other light aircraft who are trying to do circuit training. I sometimes even get the sense that our colleagues in smaller turbo-props don't quite get it. That's ok, I'll always try and fit in with what's going on, even if it does mean I have to do an orbit or whatever. I know when I used to fly smaller aircraft I never could understand what the big deal was.
Occasionally I hear stories of people who give us attitude because of their perception that we as big boys tend to push our way in. Speaking for myself, and indeed I think I can speak on behalf of my other colleagues because I have flown with nearly all of them (in NSW/VIC anyway), we do not carry some sense of being the big boys in town and everyone must get out of our way. Quite the opposite. When we are coming into a circuit and are presented with other traffic our first thought is always how we are going to work with this traffic to find a solution that works for everyone. But we have lots of other stuff to be thinking about too, so if a plan goes awry and things don't work out the way we expect and we put someone's nose out of joint, then please accept our apologies. It was not the intention to p$#ss you off.
By way of a story that demonstrates all this, I'll take the opportunity to apologise to some lighties that were doing circuits on RWY 05 at Wagga last week. We were coming in from Sydney and had the same overhead ETA as a SAAB coming in from the south. Easy. Let the SAAB go first as it would go straight in while we were doing the circuit. At about 4 miles to the northeast we were turning to join downwind at 1500', with one lighty on base, another touching down, and another on upwind about to turn crosswind (BTW the lighties were gracious in indicating that they would give way to both of us t-props while they would maneuver to stay clear). It was looking like things were going to work out fairly well. Lighty on base could land before SAAB, SAAB number 2, then us and the remaining 2 lighties. It didn't work out that way: We ended up having to extend our downwind to the limit of the circling area, while one of the lighties did (I think) 2 orbits while waiting for us to land. In retrospect it could have been done better (the orbiting lighty could have gone before us), but the R/T time and possibility of confusion made it not worth pursuing at that late stage in the game. We had too many other things to focus on.
Enough from me. I hope that explains it..
They're the same circuits we fly anywhere else. 1500 foot circuits 'cos that's what the rules say, 30 seconds past the threshold, turn base aiming for about a 800-1000 foot gate as you turn final depending on where you're at on the profile. The final gate is that you have to be stable by 500 feet.
You're right, the Dash aint a 747, but we have these things called an FDR and EGPWS. If we make our circuits too small there's too much risk we end up getting squawked at by the EGPWS (sink rate, sink rate!), or someone gives us a call a few weeks later to say we busted stable approach parameters and for that we will be punished. It's actually really easy to bust these parameters, particularly in the Q400 because it goes a bit quicker in the circuit than the 200/300. Things like vertical speed no more than -1000 fpm, airspeed Vref to Vref plus 20 and so on. If you think about it, we can be doing sometimes up to 160 knots groundspeed on base (with a bit of tailwind), so for a 3 degree path that's about 800 fpm descent. If you're high you're going to bust the 1000 fpm restriction pretty easily so it makes sense to give yourself some room to re-intercept the vertical path gently. The other thing is that because you are going reasonably quickly around the circuit you don't have a lot of time to make lateral adjustments as required. You need to be on the money every time. Also, power: if you are off the vertical path a power adjustment might be required. With around 5000 hp per engine (on the Q400) it doesn't take much to see your airspeed go racing away or a big balloon going on, particularly with flaps fully extended.
And then, if you do have to go around for whatever reason, the performance of the aircraft means you have arms legs flying around all over the place getting re-configured while trying to stay ahead of the aircraft. The performance of the Q400 in particular is pretty awesome, and we can be back into the circuit in no time flat. But at night time, in average weather the challenge levels increase significantly. To cut a long story short, we don't want to end up in a situation where you have to go around. Don't get me wrong, a missed approach is not really a big deal but there is more risk in having to do a missed approach than there is in just getting the approach nailed the first time.
So as it is, I would suggest it's a reasonable challenge for the average pilot to land one of these things without busting the parameters. Indeed I remember my first attempt when I was training; it was a complete balls up!
Hence the large circuits.
I'm with you though; if we could I would much rather throw it around like a smaller aircraft, particularly now that I am pretty comfortable with the aircraft, but it's just not practical. It just is not a light aircraft anymore. The control responsiveness is not the same and you are dealing with much more inertia. Furthermore we have to do things in a way that is consistent and allows pilots of all experience levels and abilities a reasonable chance of achieving a safe approach. For newbies on the aircraft the circuit can still be quite a challenge.
If I haven't explained it well here I apologise. It's something I do think about often though, as I am sure people do wonder what is going on, particularly when there are other light aircraft who are trying to do circuit training. I sometimes even get the sense that our colleagues in smaller turbo-props don't quite get it. That's ok, I'll always try and fit in with what's going on, even if it does mean I have to do an orbit or whatever. I know when I used to fly smaller aircraft I never could understand what the big deal was.
Occasionally I hear stories of people who give us attitude because of their perception that we as big boys tend to push our way in. Speaking for myself, and indeed I think I can speak on behalf of my other colleagues because I have flown with nearly all of them (in NSW/VIC anyway), we do not carry some sense of being the big boys in town and everyone must get out of our way. Quite the opposite. When we are coming into a circuit and are presented with other traffic our first thought is always how we are going to work with this traffic to find a solution that works for everyone. But we have lots of other stuff to be thinking about too, so if a plan goes awry and things don't work out the way we expect and we put someone's nose out of joint, then please accept our apologies. It was not the intention to p$#ss you off.
By way of a story that demonstrates all this, I'll take the opportunity to apologise to some lighties that were doing circuits on RWY 05 at Wagga last week. We were coming in from Sydney and had the same overhead ETA as a SAAB coming in from the south. Easy. Let the SAAB go first as it would go straight in while we were doing the circuit. At about 4 miles to the northeast we were turning to join downwind at 1500', with one lighty on base, another touching down, and another on upwind about to turn crosswind (BTW the lighties were gracious in indicating that they would give way to both of us t-props while they would maneuver to stay clear). It was looking like things were going to work out fairly well. Lighty on base could land before SAAB, SAAB number 2, then us and the remaining 2 lighties. It didn't work out that way: We ended up having to extend our downwind to the limit of the circling area, while one of the lighties did (I think) 2 orbits while waiting for us to land. In retrospect it could have been done better (the orbiting lighty could have gone before us), but the R/T time and possibility of confusion made it not worth pursuing at that late stage in the game. We had too many other things to focus on.
Enough from me. I hope that explains it..
Some of the best airmanship training I have done has been flying illegal circuits. "Aircraft carrier" approaches and barbell circuits (landing both ways on a nil wind morning). No saying where or in what aircraft, but it teaches judgement & flying skill, not ability to follow procedures & rote learning.
"Aircraft carrier" approaches and barbell circuits (landing both ways on a nil wind morning). No saying where or in what aircraft
Originally Posted by Gen. Anaesthetic
30 seconds past the threshold
Join Date: May 2011
Location: in the country
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know want you mean Old Akro, and you get away with at a counrty strip.
As long as the student understands the objective you want to achieve is better awareness and enchanced skill building. Something the city drivers and sausage factory clones would see as being a cowboy..or cowgirl.
As long as the student understands the objective you want to achieve is better awareness and enchanced skill building. Something the city drivers and sausage factory clones would see as being a cowboy..or cowgirl.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sunny side up
Posts: 1,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
barbell circuits (landing both ways on a nil wind morning).
I got taught those a while ago at Archerfield by a bloke with many years experience in PNG. They were some of the most valuable flying lessons I ever had, and I was a much more confident pilot after that (although I didn't stick with the flying).
I didn't know they were illegal; he just called the tower and asked for permission because there wasn't any other traffic. Maybe he had them bluffed
. Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: out past the back blocks
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did some flying out of Parafield and was quite interested to note the different circuit techniques of the different users. The grobs and tobagos seemed to fly appropriately sized circuits and most of the other circuit users seemed to feel the urge to use the entirety of the (at the time) GAAP zone...
Maybe it was the (then) Grob instructors trying to log extra hours? and now its the instructors flying the other assorted a/c increasing their TT?
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mike there is a massive disparity between the glide performance of a grob and a Tobago, the grob is one of the best gliding primary trainers (have only flown one once but was impressed) the toboggan on the other hand (which I have instructed many hours in) glides like a crowbar. Perhaps this explains the different pattern, I'm not saying that it's right though all lighties should fly a similar pattern.
Great video GRIFFO it reflects a view I have expressed many times usually when I do I hear my least favourite line "thats how they do it in the airlines".
Great video GRIFFO it reflects a view I have expressed many times usually when I do I hear my least favourite line "thats how they do it in the airlines".
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Gen A nice post, but I am still left wondering how a 1500' circuit makes your circuit bigger? Do you not just start the decent from circuit altitude earlier to pick up the profile?
Good Video. I fly a jet into places that don't always have ATC and, Yes there is a problem. But it's not just a lightie problem. At least most people will give you a wide berth. Often the problem is sitting to my right. I would estimate a fair percentage of jet pilots either can't or are uncomfortable with flying a visual circuit. They haven't received decent training at a basic stage and it shows. Some of them even try to program the FMC so they can do it with the autopilot in. I try and enter a circuit at about 180 kts with some flap and flight idle and aim to fly about a 1.5 to 2 nm spaced VISUAL circuit. That means I look outside. It's just an aeroplane, make it go where you want it to go. Look outside first and listen before trying to separate by talking on the radio and keep it tight and spend minimum time on the runway.
Do you not just start the decent from circuit altitude earlier to pick up the profile?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 62
Posts: 984
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gen. Anaesthetic,
Thanks for going to the effort of coming up with a comprehensive answer. If I read your response correctly, the aircraft itself could handle a tighter circuit quite easily, but the parameters imposed by the FDR and EGPWS produce the excessively large circuits we see you fly. That's progress I guess!
Thanks for going to the effort of coming up with a comprehensive answer. If I read your response correctly, the aircraft itself could handle a tighter circuit quite easily, but the parameters imposed by the FDR and EGPWS produce the excessively large circuits we see you fly. That's progress I guess!
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fraser Coast
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CCT's
Hell if guys car'nt be taught to land off a CCT with no Power then what chance have they Got when the Fan stops ? I was taught that way many years ago in all sorts of Aircraft never has let me down yet!