Climbing to LSALT/MSA after takeoff
Thread Starter
Climbing to LSALT/MSA after takeoff
Hi guys,
IR renewal coming up and I have a question for all the IFR pilots out there.
Is there any legal requirement to stay within a certain distance of the aerodrome after takeoff while you climb to MSA/LSALT?
I know 5nm to get established on track & Jepps say climb after departure is one of the times you can fly below LSALT.
BUT
What if you takeoff from an aerodrome with a hill/mountain to the left of upwind, climb to 500' AGL and turn crosswind (assuming you can't see said mountain - IMC/night) and slap into it.
Is it just up to pilots knowledge of the area/common sense or is it written somewhere I haven't noticed
Cheers
IR renewal coming up and I have a question for all the IFR pilots out there.
Is there any legal requirement to stay within a certain distance of the aerodrome after takeoff while you climb to MSA/LSALT?
I know 5nm to get established on track & Jepps say climb after departure is one of the times you can fly below LSALT.
BUT
What if you takeoff from an aerodrome with a hill/mountain to the left of upwind, climb to 500' AGL and turn crosswind (assuming you can't see said mountain - IMC/night) and slap into it.
Is it just up to pilots knowledge of the area/common sense or is it written somewhere I haven't noticed
Cheers
As far as I know, yes it's just up to the pilot to maintain their own terrain clearance on departure.
So if unfamiliar a good, very good, look at the WAC, approach plates etc. and make a determination.
Takeoff and climb like a scalded cat in the direction you have determined as safe until you reach lsalt for your departure track.
So if unfamiliar a good, very good, look at the WAC, approach plates etc. and make a determination.
Takeoff and climb like a scalded cat in the direction you have determined as safe until you reach lsalt for your departure track.
It's all up to you unless there's a SID or similar you can guarantee to make the gradient for.
Things to consider, which hopefully you already have seeing it's a renewal, you would be well advised to have a cunning master plan that includes the runway obstacle free gradient and splay (see the ERSA - based on runway surface width amongst other things) to cover you for the initial departure and climb, and hopefully get you up to circling height, from which you can climb to reach 10 and 25 nm MSA and enroute LSALT within the appropriate distances.
Also if it's a multi engine, you would definitely want to have considered what happens when you lose a donk and can hardly make 100fpm rate of climb, which will probably entail turning back in a safe direction to overhead in the circling area and either getting it back on the ground visually or joining an instrument approach, or climbing laboriously to a safe height while staying in the circling area boundaries (making use of all the different categories can help) and going somewhere else.
Even if you were departing somewhere with a SID, it's no good to you if you can't make the gradient with an engine out.
Things to consider, which hopefully you already have seeing it's a renewal, you would be well advised to have a cunning master plan that includes the runway obstacle free gradient and splay (see the ERSA - based on runway surface width amongst other things) to cover you for the initial departure and climb, and hopefully get you up to circling height, from which you can climb to reach 10 and 25 nm MSA and enroute LSALT within the appropriate distances.
Also if it's a multi engine, you would definitely want to have considered what happens when you lose a donk and can hardly make 100fpm rate of climb, which will probably entail turning back in a safe direction to overhead in the circling area and either getting it back on the ground visually or joining an instrument approach, or climbing laboriously to a safe height while staying in the circling area boundaries (making use of all the different categories can help) and going somewhere else.
Even if you were departing somewhere with a SID, it's no good to you if you can't make the gradient with an engine out.
Firstly, I like the rule that you never take off from an airport you can't land on again. Unless you are flying RPT (and a whole lot more current than most of us), then the real take-off minima is the approach minima for that airport. Australia has relatively simple weather patterns, most of the time a 2 hour wait will yield an improvement - or a hole or a raised area of the cloud base. If we're not flying RPT its rare that we can't deal with the delay.
Secondly, once you're at the minima, the missed approach procedure may be a useful guide.
Most of the time (one hopes) the take-offs near minima are at an airfield that you are familiar with, so you can kind of replicate a VFR climb out. If its not an airport you are familiar with, then there is probably a good argument to add some safety factor to the take-off minima and spending some time thinking about it beforehand. You may also want to circle above the field so you climb out accurately on the aid to aid track, rather than converging onto the track from the runway.
Single pilot IFR has a high accident rate and take off is a high workload environment. Unless you are doing it everyday, its worth adding margin to the minima.
So, for the test, I think the answer is, depending on the airport location (ie if its Woomera, who cares?) and your local knowledge, you climb out converging onto track, follow a missed approach, follow a SID, or circle to the circling minima then continue the climb on track.
Secondly, once you're at the minima, the missed approach procedure may be a useful guide.
Most of the time (one hopes) the take-offs near minima are at an airfield that you are familiar with, so you can kind of replicate a VFR climb out. If its not an airport you are familiar with, then there is probably a good argument to add some safety factor to the take-off minima and spending some time thinking about it beforehand. You may also want to circle above the field so you climb out accurately on the aid to aid track, rather than converging onto the track from the runway.
Single pilot IFR has a high accident rate and take off is a high workload environment. Unless you are doing it everyday, its worth adding margin to the minima.
So, for the test, I think the answer is, depending on the airport location (ie if its Woomera, who cares?) and your local knowledge, you climb out converging onto track, follow a missed approach, follow a SID, or circle to the circling minima then continue the climb on track.
Flying an instrument approach in reverse may also get you safely to the MSA, especially if it is a straight-in approach to the reciprocal runway you are departing from.
Using the missed approach might be good too - except the missed approach is designed to be flown from overhead the aerodrome from the minimum descent altitude, which by definition won't coincide when you're departing. But still - the direction of the missed approach track will usually suggest fewer obstacles and lower terrain. A good study of the area beforehand is warranted.
The other useful thing might be the DME/GPS arrival chart - at least gives you an indication of how high you need to be to be safe as you climb away from the aerodrome.
My 10 cents' worth, FWIW.
Ted
Using the missed approach might be good too - except the missed approach is designed to be flown from overhead the aerodrome from the minimum descent altitude, which by definition won't coincide when you're departing. But still - the direction of the missed approach track will usually suggest fewer obstacles and lower terrain. A good study of the area beforehand is warranted.
The other useful thing might be the DME/GPS arrival chart - at least gives you an indication of how high you need to be to be safe as you climb away from the aerodrome.
My 10 cents' worth, FWIW.
Ted
Moderator
Unless you can show compliance with a climb profile to clear obstacles (and this was introduced into the AIP long ago) then one probably ought to be climbing in the circuit to an appropriate height for the route.
I've done this for renewals and (especially) at night for my own comfort on light twins - never had anyone complain.
I've done this for renewals and (especially) at night for my own comfort on light twins - never had anyone complain.
Thread Starter
Thanks for the answers guys.
I guess common sense would suggest departing overhead & a good study of charts before departing into IMC. I just wanted to double check there wasn't something glaringly obvious I was missing in the Jepps.
I noticed that for NVFR you need to stay in the circling are while climbing to Lsalt, funny that there isn't anything similar set down for IMC/IFR
I guess common sense would suggest departing overhead & a good study of charts before departing into IMC. I just wanted to double check there wasn't something glaringly obvious I was missing in the Jepps.
I noticed that for NVFR you need to stay in the circling are while climbing to Lsalt, funny that there isn't anything similar set down for IMC/IFR
Climb in the circuit to the 10m lowest safe and then depart. You can't get it wrong that way. The only time I would not do this is if I was visual, or know the airfield very well. In a test, I always do the first option.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oz
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A DME/GPS arrival plate is also a good tool allowing the pilot to 'get on with it'. For example, the arrival may indicate there is a 1800 step at 4nm, on departure make sure you can climb to this height by that distance. It should be possible unless you have an engine failure in a piston twin, in that case you need to also be considering your escape plan.
Climbing to LSALT from overhead the aerodrome NVFR is overdone by some pilots. Heard on approach last year a Redcliffe pilot telling ATC he needed to climb to 6500 overhead YRED (7ft elev) before departing west. ATC came back saying there would be at least a 45min delay due to all of the YBBN inbound traffic and offered a lower departure altitude until he could get the pilot clear (4000ft from memory, whatever it was the pilot had a fair margin over terrain for a good distance). The pilot cancelled the clearance request and went home for the night. Flying NVFR one could consider revised LSALTs based on visual features, not just one LSALT based on a 100nm sector. But then again NVFR seems screwed up i.e. left hand circuits at night off runway 16 ay YKRY, however once one discovers approach plates they find this is a no circling area.
Climbing to LSALT from overhead the aerodrome NVFR is overdone by some pilots. Heard on approach last year a Redcliffe pilot telling ATC he needed to climb to 6500 overhead YRED (7ft elev) before departing west. ATC came back saying there would be at least a 45min delay due to all of the YBBN inbound traffic and offered a lower departure altitude until he could get the pilot clear (4000ft from memory, whatever it was the pilot had a fair margin over terrain for a good distance). The pilot cancelled the clearance request and went home for the night. Flying NVFR one could consider revised LSALTs based on visual features, not just one LSALT based on a 100nm sector. But then again NVFR seems screwed up i.e. left hand circuits at night off runway 16 ay YKRY, however once one discovers approach plates they find this is a no circling area.
Moderator
in that case you need to also be considering your escape plan.
.. in many places not an easy task ? For awkward places an initial climb - especially in a light twin - makes a lot of sense. Certainly not an option to have the failure after departure and then start thinking about what to do.
.. in many places not an easy task ? For awkward places an initial climb - especially in a light twin - makes a lot of sense. Certainly not an option to have the failure after departure and then start thinking about what to do.
All goods advice here. The best advice though is don't dept if ya can't come back for a ldg due terrain or wx. The reverse use of a DGA is great if available. Circle whilst in the ct area obviously simple & effective. Another trick is to use the opposite rwy compared to yr dept trk if avail. WX conditions allowing that is.
Say yr dept trk is 180 & you have 36 avail for dept. Dept off rwy 36 & by the time you get to the circuit limit for say Cat B (2.66nm) you may very well be abv LSALT already. If rdr is avial ask for rdr MVA whilst climbing.
I've even gone the opposite way to my intended dpet trk where the LSALT is much lwr then once I reach my LSALT for my intended trk minus an allowance for the 180 turn & miles already completed turn & set course:-)It's the same as staying in the Ct in a way but ya might get visual going the other way & be able to proceed visually abv cloud.
At the end of the day simple really,don't crash!
Wmk2
Say yr dept trk is 180 & you have 36 avail for dept. Dept off rwy 36 & by the time you get to the circuit limit for say Cat B (2.66nm) you may very well be abv LSALT already. If rdr is avial ask for rdr MVA whilst climbing.
I've even gone the opposite way to my intended dpet trk where the LSALT is much lwr then once I reach my LSALT for my intended trk minus an allowance for the 180 turn & miles already completed turn & set course:-)It's the same as staying in the Ct in a way but ya might get visual going the other way & be able to proceed visually abv cloud.
At the end of the day simple really,don't crash!
Wmk2
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Probably what is a stupid question.. but in terms of flying the reverse tracks of established IAP's such as DGA's etc for departing in IMC in terrain rich environment- what is the safety buffer against a potential collision with another aircraft doing the actual approach? I was always taught the NVFR procedure of climbing within the circuit if possible and/or confines of the aerodrome to LSALT but for IFR it was a case of the pilot calculated/Chart LSALT/MSA and intercepting that ASAP after departure.. however on departure/initial track i may add..
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Ummmm IFR Taxi or departure call usually gets you Traffic advice.
Unless the DGA is very azimuth specific, such as one into YBSU from MYB....which is a granite rich stuff up, you could find that the reverse of a DGA is no worse than any departure in class G.
Unless the DGA is very azimuth specific, such as one into YBSU from MYB....which is a granite rich stuff up, you could find that the reverse of a DGA is no worse than any departure in class G.
nkand
Probably what is a stupid question..
With proper use of the radio there shouldn't be any increased risk of a collision with an inbound aircraft conducting the DGA. Considering most DGA's cover 360 degrees surrounding the navaid the likelihood of that happening even without a radio is quite low.
With proper communication the risk of collision is almost as unlikely as a visual departure!
14 posts!
Have we decided on how to depart an airport IFR yet?
Have we decided on how to depart an airport IFR yet?
Scary, in'it!
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 22nd May 2011 at 12:36.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 429
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who is departing a CTAF IFR inside or outside VHF coverage without making a call on both CTAF and Centre and the inverse who is inbound IFR conduction an arrival without having made those calls?
Its complete unreasonable for any charter pilot to be wasting time circling over head to an en-route lowest safe on departure when there is a perfectly safe on track alternative. Given everything an IFR pilot has at their disposal you should be fully aware of any obstacle on your departure track. There are very few strips in aus that would require more than an overhead departure to maintain a safe terrain clearance.
Even if you depart on track with a "steep" climb requirement, at 120kts you still only need 600fpm.
Its complete unreasonable for any charter pilot to be wasting time circling over head to an en-route lowest safe on departure when there is a perfectly safe on track alternative. Given everything an IFR pilot has at their disposal you should be fully aware of any obstacle on your departure track. There are very few strips in aus that would require more than an overhead departure to maintain a safe terrain clearance.
Even if you depart on track with a "steep" climb requirement, at 120kts you still only need 600fpm.
