Oil Prices
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Word is from Lybia: 1000 civilians dead
Some of these mercanaries have been captured and with the defection to Malta of 2 pilots it would appear as though the defence of the country is in a state of collapse!
Grandpa Aerotart
Better FOR WHO?
Since when was it a competition that required one to vanquish the other?
States go to war for reason that are almost never what they say are the reasons.
I note there is now a Muslim Cleric in Egypt - long an advocate of attacking Israel - whipping up that fervour again...and crowds, reportedly millions strong, of people are responding positively to his rhetoric.
Power Line - Bad Vibrations From Cairo
Are the UN sanctions against Israel really about an occupied Gaza and West Bank? If that were the case where are the sanctions against Turkey for its on going occupation of Cyprus. Or against China for its on going occupation of Tibet?
10% of what was Germany in the 1930s is now Poland...seen any Germans strapping bombs to themselves or lobbing rockets into Poland?
The fact is if State A attacks State B repeatedly and loses then State A can expect to lose territory. Israel used to occupy all the Sinai as well as Gaza, West Bank and Golan heights - when Egypt swore off attacking Israel again Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt - Syria and the Palestinian territories have never stopped attacking Israel so they remain occupied.
The fact remains that all this unrest has come as the ME autocrats recognise that the US is now governed by a left wing dove not a right wing hawk. The deterrence factor of a hawkish US under Bush is gone. We're back to the Carter era of left wing dovish foreign policy and its results.
Libya utterly capitulated and renounced its policy of state sponsored terrorism and desire to aquire weapons of mass destruction after Bush et al removed Saddam Hussien. Gaddafi was scared ****less of the US and its allies just a few short years ago but now feels no compunction in killing any number of his citizens to protect his power. I note that recently Libya was voted into the chair of the UN Human Rights Commission - surely the UN is taking the piss? I guess not since its hallowed halls
have long become the stamping grounds of numerous (mostly, but not exclusively, African) autocracies. Pajamas Media A Snapshot of Today’s United Nations
Like the League of Nations that preceded it the Un has seen its day in the sun.
Galtieri didn't attack the Falklands for oil or because the real estate had any intrinsic value to Argentina. He was a military dictator and the Junta was shaky and he needed to divert the attention of Argentinians towards an externality. The UK had just voted in Thatcher and she was probably viewed by the military junta as a 'weak female' who would not have the balls to come all the way to the South Atlantic and take the Falklands back. Years of defence budget cuts had gutted the UK military and these two factors may have reduced the UK's deterrence factor to a level, in the minds of the Argentinian dictatorship, that indicated to them they could take Isla Malvinas back cheaply and shore up domestic support for a while.
They were wrong. They were beaten convincingly, lost power and Argentina today is a very different place. Arguably a much better place.
Bin laden declared war on the west for reasons that included 'Jewish women walking bared armed in Mecca' (utterly impossible) and because the US had a very large military force camped in SA (long gone). He is still at war with the west. Why is that?
I am going to suggest, again, that its because western democracies and their values represent a threat to all that male dominated islamic autocracies and theocracies hold dear - power.
Plenty of reasons to go to war - just none of them being espoused by the people who want that war - nor being reported on by the Lame Stream Media - nor being condemned by the UN.
The other factor at play in the ME is 1000s of years old. All over the ME Shia majorities are being oppressed by Sunni minorities. Bahrain is merely one example. Bahrain is viewed by Iran, a Shia theocracy, as a legitimate part of Iran...like China views Taiwan. Shia/Sunni emnity goes right back to who killed Mohammed. Saudi Arabia is Wahabi - yet another version of Islam that oppresses Shiites and they 'own' Mecca and Medina.
PLENTY of motivation there for Iran seeking WMD.
So yes I think there is a huge problem in the ME and it will impact energy prices and impact them more than in the past because of the increased reliance on ME oil thanks to moron Greeny energy policies over the last decades.
I suspect that the peoples of the west are about to be reintroduced to the results of voting into power weak leadership that is incapable of maintaining the wests deterrence factor on ideological grounds. Its Neville Chamberlain all over again...Peace in our Time
Our only hope is that, historically speaking, when the west truly perceives an overt threat to its values and survival and goes utterly postal on that perceived threat it unbeatable...who would have believed in 1939 the west could beat Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Militarist Japan...we need to roll out another Churchill, Roosevelt or even a Bush.
We'd have been better served not renouncing the 'Big Stick' in the first place.
Politics, human nature, economics and war seem akin to climate - unavoidably cyclical.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 23rd Feb 2011 at 02:31.
Chimbu,
Excuse me if I ignore most of your “lets bomb brown people cos they aint like me” nonsense. Most of your points are simple subjective views not worth arguing over.
But there are a few points worth considering.
“I note there is now a Muslim Cleric in Egypt - long an advocate of attacking Israel - whipping up that fervour again”
Yep, you are probably correct. This, however, does not represent the majority opinion. Just like the majority of Americans do not support the advocates of attacking Iran who are also “whipping up . . . .fervor”.
Unlike the Egyptian cleric though, the American extremists will probably get their way, just like they did with Afghanistan and Iraq. Any attack on Iran will be sold as a pre emptive defense of Israel but will in fact be motivated by money, oil and ….more money. It sounds like you are buying the same goods from the folks that sold us WMD locations in Iraq.
Standby for a false flag operation.
“…the US is now governed by a left wing dove not a right wing hawk”.
No, the US is governed by Obama who will do exactly what the power brokers instruct him to do, just like Bush and Clinton before him. The days of “presidentialised politics” such as Carter and Reagan are long gone.
“Libya utterly capitulated and renounced its policy of state sponsored terrorism”
Libya changed its stance as a result of back room deals in London that had nothing to do with terrorism and much to do with oil.
“Bin laden declared war on the west for reasons that included 'Jewish women walking bared armed in Mecca”
OBL was motivated by US troops still stationed in KSR many years after a handshake promise to have them removed. Richard Clarke in testimony to Congress indicated that Washington was well aware that such troop presence years after SH was ejected from Kuwait could possibly have dire consequences. And it did, in 2001.
So Chimbu, Do you think high oil prices are good or bad for Washington policy makers. Is strife in the ME to be avoided or encouraged?
Excuse me if I ignore most of your “lets bomb brown people cos they aint like me” nonsense. Most of your points are simple subjective views not worth arguing over.
But there are a few points worth considering.
“I note there is now a Muslim Cleric in Egypt - long an advocate of attacking Israel - whipping up that fervour again”
Yep, you are probably correct. This, however, does not represent the majority opinion. Just like the majority of Americans do not support the advocates of attacking Iran who are also “whipping up . . . .fervor”.
Unlike the Egyptian cleric though, the American extremists will probably get their way, just like they did with Afghanistan and Iraq. Any attack on Iran will be sold as a pre emptive defense of Israel but will in fact be motivated by money, oil and ….more money. It sounds like you are buying the same goods from the folks that sold us WMD locations in Iraq.
Standby for a false flag operation.
“…the US is now governed by a left wing dove not a right wing hawk”.
No, the US is governed by Obama who will do exactly what the power brokers instruct him to do, just like Bush and Clinton before him. The days of “presidentialised politics” such as Carter and Reagan are long gone.
“Libya utterly capitulated and renounced its policy of state sponsored terrorism”
Libya changed its stance as a result of back room deals in London that had nothing to do with terrorism and much to do with oil.
“Bin laden declared war on the west for reasons that included 'Jewish women walking bared armed in Mecca”
OBL was motivated by US troops still stationed in KSR many years after a handshake promise to have them removed. Richard Clarke in testimony to Congress indicated that Washington was well aware that such troop presence years after SH was ejected from Kuwait could possibly have dire consequences. And it did, in 2001.
So Chimbu, Do you think high oil prices are good or bad for Washington policy makers. Is strife in the ME to be avoided or encouraged?
Regardless of the cause it is rising;
West Texas Crude up to $99US a barrel overnight, Brent Crude now over $111US and Australia is paying in the region of $111US, through singapore trade. The Brent crude increase was over $5 in one night.
The IATA Jet fuel price average was at $119US ex refinery per barrel on the 18th Feb, a 39% increase in a year.
Unless the issues are resolved fast there is some pain coming for aviation again.
West Texas Crude up to $99US a barrel overnight, Brent Crude now over $111US and Australia is paying in the region of $111US, through singapore trade. The Brent crude increase was over $5 in one night.
The IATA Jet fuel price average was at $119US ex refinery per barrel on the 18th Feb, a 39% increase in a year.
Unless the issues are resolved fast there is some pain coming for aviation again.
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Yep the dollar is over alright I agree with that. The monetary system was flawed from day 1. The idea of labour for income, profit based system on unlimited growth is obsurd and is only going to lead the world to self distruction. The world is in debt, and it is impossible to get out of debt, the more $ there is, the more debt there is. The only way to have no debt, is to have no money. Think about it.
We have mistreated, and abused the ME for such a long time, no wonder they hate us. They have every reason to, and to refuse democracy. If the US goes in there this time, they will lose. I don't reckon this will be a fake war like the war against Japan or Vietnam, or Iraq (in each case, were provoked and allowed to happen from the point of the US), this will be 100% real, and will be for survival.
Chimbu,
Come on, you can't put Churchill, Bush and Roosevelt in the same sentence....
Churchill was the only 1 fighting a real war, defending his country from a real enemy at the time...
We have mistreated, and abused the ME for such a long time, no wonder they hate us. They have every reason to, and to refuse democracy. If the US goes in there this time, they will lose. I don't reckon this will be a fake war like the war against Japan or Vietnam, or Iraq (in each case, were provoked and allowed to happen from the point of the US), this will be 100% real, and will be for survival.
Chimbu,
Come on, you can't put Churchill, Bush and Roosevelt in the same sentence....
Churchill was the only 1 fighting a real war, defending his country from a real enemy at the time...
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"So Chimbu, Do you think high oil prices are good or bad for Washington policy makers. Is strife in the ME to be avoided or encouraged?"
The global monetary system has effectively become tied to an oil standard in place of the gold standard with the greenback the weapon of choice.
Rising oil prices could prop up the dollar in the short/mid term and stave of collapse of the US economy for another administration to worry about.
This could be the beginning of the end for the American empire and this will be coincident with an increase in violence in the Middle East.
The key is what happens in Saudi.
The global monetary system has effectively become tied to an oil standard in place of the gold standard with the greenback the weapon of choice.
Rising oil prices could prop up the dollar in the short/mid term and stave of collapse of the US economy for another administration to worry about.
This could be the beginning of the end for the American empire and this will be coincident with an increase in violence in the Middle East.
The key is what happens in Saudi.
Grandpa Aerotart
Sorry but I don't 'do' left wing conspiracy theories. UK 'deals' with Libya are to be deplored but they came after Gaddafi had the **** scared out of him. To my way of thinking to oust Hussien and stop Gaddafi with only one short war was time and money well spent. Yes innocent Iraqis died but Saddam was killing 10s of 1000s of his own people anyway. Unfortunately in real life you often only get to pick between two bad choices.
Saddam in power until his death and replacement with one of his psycho sons would have been better or worse for Iraqis?
High oil prices are very bad.
Neither.
Ponder the results of every UN negotiated peace deal. All they did was ensure another war at a later date. Wars that go to their natural conclusion seem to resolve things in a more permanent fashion.
Germany, Italy and Japan were utterly vanquished and subsequently became our friends and trading partners. The ideologies that spawned Nazism, Fascism and Militarism were so utterly discredited in 1945 that, aside from isolated terrorist attacks from disaffected Nazis that went on into 1947, NO ONE in those countries would even admit to themselves that they had supported them in 1939 - and the VAST majority of Germans, Italians and EVERY Japanese most certainly DID support those ideologies in the 30s.
There is every indication that Iraq may go the same way left to their own devices. A bit different to the situation that existed post Gulf War 1.
Vietnam was the same - the US and its allies were convincingly beaten and everyone moved on to eventually become, if not friends, at least trading partners.
Had Israel, alone or with help, been allowed to 'finish' things during Yom Kippur or the 6 Day War and utterly discredit the ideologies that attacked them would the ME be a better place today for the average Arab?
I think it would be.
Whatever regimes are running Egypt, Libya etc in a few months will need to export oil...so hopefully this oil spike will be short lived. Even 3-6 months of very high oil prices will drive the west back into stagflation and recession.
But make no mistake - a UN brokered group hug will resolve nothing in the ME. It hasn't in the last 65 years and it won't in the next 65. The ONLY thing that will halt Islamofascism is to utterly discredit it in the eyes of EVERY Muslim.
Either lots of people die in a short time frame or a long one, but either way a lot of people will die.
I don't find anything about the above the least bit attractive but history shows it is the way of things.
Saddam in power until his death and replacement with one of his psycho sons would have been better or worse for Iraqis?
So Chimbu, Do you think high oil prices are good or bad for Washington policy makers.
Is strife in the ME to be avoided or encouraged?
Ponder the results of every UN negotiated peace deal. All they did was ensure another war at a later date. Wars that go to their natural conclusion seem to resolve things in a more permanent fashion.
Germany, Italy and Japan were utterly vanquished and subsequently became our friends and trading partners. The ideologies that spawned Nazism, Fascism and Militarism were so utterly discredited in 1945 that, aside from isolated terrorist attacks from disaffected Nazis that went on into 1947, NO ONE in those countries would even admit to themselves that they had supported them in 1939 - and the VAST majority of Germans, Italians and EVERY Japanese most certainly DID support those ideologies in the 30s.
There is every indication that Iraq may go the same way left to their own devices. A bit different to the situation that existed post Gulf War 1.
Vietnam was the same - the US and its allies were convincingly beaten and everyone moved on to eventually become, if not friends, at least trading partners.
Had Israel, alone or with help, been allowed to 'finish' things during Yom Kippur or the 6 Day War and utterly discredit the ideologies that attacked them would the ME be a better place today for the average Arab?
I think it would be.
Whatever regimes are running Egypt, Libya etc in a few months will need to export oil...so hopefully this oil spike will be short lived. Even 3-6 months of very high oil prices will drive the west back into stagflation and recession.
But make no mistake - a UN brokered group hug will resolve nothing in the ME. It hasn't in the last 65 years and it won't in the next 65. The ONLY thing that will halt Islamofascism is to utterly discredit it in the eyes of EVERY Muslim.
Either lots of people die in a short time frame or a long one, but either way a lot of people will die.
I don't find anything about the above the least bit attractive but history shows it is the way of things.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 24th Feb 2011 at 13:31.
Chimbu,
Some very astute comments in all your posts in this thread.
Your comments re history in last post are certainly correct.
The UN has been basically bloody useless since its inception. Stated goals were admirable, esp after 2 devastating world wars and looked good on paper but useless if they cannot or will not be enforced.
Korea is another example of what you mentioned. Had the war continued against the North and China if necessary et al the countries future and the lives of millions would have been completely different.
If the war had escalated further between the west and communism then the Geopolitics of the entire world would likely have changed dramatically and the cold war would have gone hot and been decided in the 1950s.
Too late now, and the world has been been paying for it in all sorts of ways for 60years and will continue to do so.
Some very astute comments in all your posts in this thread.
Your comments re history in last post are certainly correct.
The UN has been basically bloody useless since its inception. Stated goals were admirable, esp after 2 devastating world wars and looked good on paper but useless if they cannot or will not be enforced.
Korea is another example of what you mentioned. Had the war continued against the North and China if necessary et al the countries future and the lives of millions would have been completely different.
If the war had escalated further between the west and communism then the Geopolitics of the entire world would likely have changed dramatically and the cold war would have gone hot and been decided in the 1950s.
Too late now, and the world has been been paying for it in all sorts of ways for 60years and will continue to do so.
“Yes innocent Iraqis died but Saddam was killing 10s of 1000s of his own people anyway.”
This is not why the US invaded Iraq. SH was a son of a bitch, but at least he was “our son of a bitch”. This quote from a time when the west was assisting Iraq destroy Kurdish villages by selling them weapons.
The west didn’t give a rats ass about SH “killing his own people”. You may be the only one that did.
“Had Israel, alone or with help, been allowed to 'finish' things during Yom Kippur or the 6 Day War”
What exactly do you mean by “finish things”? Are you aware of why one former Israeli PM cannot travel abroad to seek medical attention?
This is not why the US invaded Iraq. SH was a son of a bitch, but at least he was “our son of a bitch”. This quote from a time when the west was assisting Iraq destroy Kurdish villages by selling them weapons.
The west didn’t give a rats ass about SH “killing his own people”. You may be the only one that did.
“Had Israel, alone or with help, been allowed to 'finish' things during Yom Kippur or the 6 Day War”
What exactly do you mean by “finish things”? Are you aware of why one former Israeli PM cannot travel abroad to seek medical attention?
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Operation Cyclone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This makes some interesting reading about how we funded "islamofacism"
This makes some interesting reading about how we funded "islamofacism"
Grandpa Aerotart
oicur12 you need to spend less time listening to/reading Noam Chomsky and more time watching what actually happens in the world around you.
The US helped Iraq in its 8 year war with Iran. Whatever faults Saddam had - and they are legion - he was a SECULAR dictator.
MUCH later when Saddam gassed the Kurds, an ethnic minority in the North who wanted to form their own state and to take their oil with them, the US enforced a no fly zone - as they did when Saddam was attacking the Marsh Arabs in the south at the same time, to protect them.
I mean going all the way to Damascus instead of stopping in the Golan Heights. Or do you think WW2 would have been resolved permanently by the Allies calling it a day at the Rhein or Okinawa?
Please tell us what Chomsky thinks - I am sure we'd all find it fascinating.
ZB go on youtube and search for videos of Yuri Bezmenov - a KGB defector in the 70s - and here him telling what he was trained to do in various 3rd world countries. The 'Cold War' was real.
his is not why the US invaded Iraq. SH was a son of a bitch, but at least he was “our son of a bitch”. This quote from a time when the west was assisting Iraq destroy Kurdish villages by selling them weapons.
MUCH later when Saddam gassed the Kurds, an ethnic minority in the North who wanted to form their own state and to take their oil with them, the US enforced a no fly zone - as they did when Saddam was attacking the Marsh Arabs in the south at the same time, to protect them.
What exactly do you mean by “finish things”?
Are you aware of why one former Israeli PM cannot travel abroad to seek medical attention?
ZB go on youtube and search for videos of Yuri Bezmenov - a KGB defector in the 70s - and here him telling what he was trained to do in various 3rd world countries. The 'Cold War' was real.
“MUCH later when Saddam gassed the Kurds, an ethnic minority in the North who wanted to form their own state and to take their oil with them, the US enforced a no fly zone”
Chimbu,
The gas attacks occurred BEFORE the no fly zone. The no fly was only set up AFTER SH went off script by invading Kuwait. You are basing your argument on an incorrect time line.
When the gas attacks were occurring, the west did very little, except sell them some of the gear to do it, including the chemicals.
So when you use the justification to invade Iraq “killing his own people”, he was. Yes, indeed. And it was with western approval and assistance. But "killing his own people" was NOT why the west manufactured a reason to invade in 2001.
Chimbu,
The gas attacks occurred BEFORE the no fly zone. The no fly was only set up AFTER SH went off script by invading Kuwait. You are basing your argument on an incorrect time line.
When the gas attacks were occurring, the west did very little, except sell them some of the gear to do it, including the chemicals.
So when you use the justification to invade Iraq “killing his own people”, he was. Yes, indeed. And it was with western approval and assistance. But "killing his own people" was NOT why the west manufactured a reason to invade in 2001.
Grandpa Aerotart
Iraq-Iran war ran from 1980-1988.
The US helped Iraq with Helicopters and other conventional weapons early in that conflict.
The Kurds were gassed near the end of that war in 1988. Why would they have no fly zones BEFORE they were needed
The chemical precursors for the gas attacks came from Egypt, Netherlands, India, Singapore, West Germany and some from private US companies after Reagan delisted Iraq from the list of state sponsors of terrorism (silly thing to do I admit).
Note the word 'precursors' - should we all assume every time a country buys chemicals that they will be used to make WMD?
When the west found out what Saddam had done after GW1 they (US and allies) enforced no fly zones in 1991/92.
Your assertion is that the 'the west' (US and it allies) gave Iraq weapons to assist him to carry out genocide against Kurds. That is wrong, baseless and, quite frankly disgusting.
You hate the US so much you just cannot see reason.
Could you perhaps explain why the US (NATO) bombed Christians in Bosnia to protect Muslims from the ethnic cleansing that was extant when the left wing EU had stood by and done nothing for years?
Or perhaps explain why the US went into Somalia (no oil there). Could a reason be that they wished to try and avoid Somalia becoming a haven for Islamic Terrorism?
The US (Let alone 'the west') is NOT the bad guy on the world stage. They are not perfect and they make mistakes and they sometimes back people who, in hindsight, may not ALWAYS have been the best choice.
I prefer to believe they were the best of a bunch of bad options at the time.
The facts are that for the entirety of the 20th century, and so far the 21st century, western democracies have been forced to fight wars. German Imperialism in WW1, Fascism/Militarism in WW2, Maxism/Stalinism throughout the Cold War and the rise of Islamofascism in the later part of the Cold War and until this day.
Western Democracies didn't start any of those wars.
What would you suggest was a better path than that which the US and its allies have taken?
If you think western democracy and all that relatively free markets have given you is so terrible why don't you sell your cars/houses/ etc and take your families to one of the many alternatives - I am sure they will love the change in their life circumstances.
Personally I think a little bit of reverse flow in the boat people trade would be a very good thing if it means we rid Australia of people who don't love Australia and everything it stands for....while recognising our democracy is not perfect and doesn't NEED to be perfect....it just needs to be better than the alternative.
The US helped Iraq with Helicopters and other conventional weapons early in that conflict.
The Kurds were gassed near the end of that war in 1988. Why would they have no fly zones BEFORE they were needed
The chemical precursors for the gas attacks came from Egypt, Netherlands, India, Singapore, West Germany and some from private US companies after Reagan delisted Iraq from the list of state sponsors of terrorism (silly thing to do I admit).
Note the word 'precursors' - should we all assume every time a country buys chemicals that they will be used to make WMD?
When the west found out what Saddam had done after GW1 they (US and allies) enforced no fly zones in 1991/92.
This quote from a time when the west was assisting Iraq destroy Kurdish villages by selling them weapons.
You hate the US so much you just cannot see reason.
Could you perhaps explain why the US (NATO) bombed Christians in Bosnia to protect Muslims from the ethnic cleansing that was extant when the left wing EU had stood by and done nothing for years?
Or perhaps explain why the US went into Somalia (no oil there). Could a reason be that they wished to try and avoid Somalia becoming a haven for Islamic Terrorism?
The US (Let alone 'the west') is NOT the bad guy on the world stage. They are not perfect and they make mistakes and they sometimes back people who, in hindsight, may not ALWAYS have been the best choice.
I prefer to believe they were the best of a bunch of bad options at the time.
The facts are that for the entirety of the 20th century, and so far the 21st century, western democracies have been forced to fight wars. German Imperialism in WW1, Fascism/Militarism in WW2, Maxism/Stalinism throughout the Cold War and the rise of Islamofascism in the later part of the Cold War and until this day.
Western Democracies didn't start any of those wars.
What would you suggest was a better path than that which the US and its allies have taken?
If you think western democracy and all that relatively free markets have given you is so terrible why don't you sell your cars/houses/ etc and take your families to one of the many alternatives - I am sure they will love the change in their life circumstances.
Personally I think a little bit of reverse flow in the boat people trade would be a very good thing if it means we rid Australia of people who don't love Australia and everything it stands for....while recognising our democracy is not perfect and doesn't NEED to be perfect....it just needs to be better than the alternative.
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CC - while I agree with most of your sentiments, the fact of the matter is Iraq II was an unneccessary action that was not started by Iraq. The entire lead up to the war was farcical - there was no evidence of WMDs before or since, the weapons inspection teams were hampered at every step in a rush to war. The arguments that Saddam was tied to terrorism were without evidence. The idea of regime change was BS because there were plenty of more critical examples of dictators to take down that are still in power. If anything all the war did was become a proving ground for terrorism training once the vacuum of Saddam's power took effect, and turn the country into a meatgrinder that is still playing out today.
I still cannot fathom why the Iraq invasion had to occur. I can only imagine the real reasons are known only to Cheney and his associates and we will probably never know the truth to it. It sure as hell was not because of the propaganda pumped out to the public - unfortunately it was swallowed hook, line and sinker.
I just wonder if the results in Afghanistan would be better if all those resources and lives were not wasted on some ideological goal in Iraq.
I still cannot fathom why the Iraq invasion had to occur. I can only imagine the real reasons are known only to Cheney and his associates and we will probably never know the truth to it. It sure as hell was not because of the propaganda pumped out to the public - unfortunately it was swallowed hook, line and sinker.
I just wonder if the results in Afghanistan would be better if all those resources and lives were not wasted on some ideological goal in Iraq.
“The Kurds were gassed near the end of that war in 1988. Why would they have no fly zones BEFORE they were needed.”
The US did not have the "no fly zones" in place during the gassing incidents. Your statement indicated that the US set up no fly zones in order to protect the Kurds as copied below:
“MUCH later when Saddam gassed the Kurds…..the US enforced a no fly zone”
This is incorrect.
“Your assertion is that the 'the west' (US and it allies) gave Iraq weapons to assist him to carry out genocide against Kurds. That is wrong, baseless and, quite frankly disgusting.”
According to excerpts from a Senate report published in the New York Times, the US Department of Commerce continued exporting bacillus anthracis, brucella melitensis, clostridium perfringens, clostridium botulinum, histoplasma capsulatam, clostridium tetani, and escherichia coli to Iraq until 1989, with full knowledge that these chemicals had been deployed for domestic use. Some of these chemicals were dispensed using “dual use” Bell helicopters purpose built for export for agricultural use to bypass restrictions on arms sales.
According to an article in The Los Angeles Times, the Halabja attacks were conducted using expertise and intel obtained from the US military including sat pics provided by the CIA.
"Could you perhaps explain why the US (NATO) bombed Christians in Bosnia to protect Muslims from the ethnic cleansing that was extant when the left wing EU had stood by and done nothing for years?"
Because it was in the geopolitical interests of western (US) policy makers. Providing safe routes for Caspian oil and gas via AMBO, permitting the establishment of western military bases such as Bondsteel, countering a growing Russian versus EU influence in Europe.
Governments only ever act out of self-interest. We clearly disagree on this point.
"Or perhaps explain why the US went into Somalia (no oil there)."
Somalia is important to western interests for two main reasons. It is strategically important as it sits at the choke point for oil travelling from Eilat to markets in Asia. Control of this choke point is critical to provide a relief valve for if (when) Iranian actions threaten the Strait of Hormuz. This is the same reason for US military buildup in locations such as Djibouti and missile strikes against “terrorists” in Yemen.
Somalia has no known oil reserves but Conoco, Chev(Tex) and Amoco are itching to commence exploration and drilling and already have signed exclusive contracts.
“If you think western democracy and all that relatively free markets have given you is so terrible why don't you sell your cars/houses/ etc and take your families to one of the many alternatives”
This is such a common failing in debate. “I dare to discuss the failings of the system within which I operate therefore I should reject all components of the system.”
You are clutching at straws with this line my friend. If you take the time to read my posts, I have NEVER commented on the merits of “relatively free markets”. You are attempting to debate an argument I have never made. “Free markets” can operate independently from the geopolitical shadow plays that are a hallmark of modern western empire building.
The US did not have the "no fly zones" in place during the gassing incidents. Your statement indicated that the US set up no fly zones in order to protect the Kurds as copied below:
“MUCH later when Saddam gassed the Kurds…..the US enforced a no fly zone”
This is incorrect.
“Your assertion is that the 'the west' (US and it allies) gave Iraq weapons to assist him to carry out genocide against Kurds. That is wrong, baseless and, quite frankly disgusting.”
According to excerpts from a Senate report published in the New York Times, the US Department of Commerce continued exporting bacillus anthracis, brucella melitensis, clostridium perfringens, clostridium botulinum, histoplasma capsulatam, clostridium tetani, and escherichia coli to Iraq until 1989, with full knowledge that these chemicals had been deployed for domestic use. Some of these chemicals were dispensed using “dual use” Bell helicopters purpose built for export for agricultural use to bypass restrictions on arms sales.
According to an article in The Los Angeles Times, the Halabja attacks were conducted using expertise and intel obtained from the US military including sat pics provided by the CIA.
"Could you perhaps explain why the US (NATO) bombed Christians in Bosnia to protect Muslims from the ethnic cleansing that was extant when the left wing EU had stood by and done nothing for years?"
Because it was in the geopolitical interests of western (US) policy makers. Providing safe routes for Caspian oil and gas via AMBO, permitting the establishment of western military bases such as Bondsteel, countering a growing Russian versus EU influence in Europe.
Governments only ever act out of self-interest. We clearly disagree on this point.
"Or perhaps explain why the US went into Somalia (no oil there)."
Somalia is important to western interests for two main reasons. It is strategically important as it sits at the choke point for oil travelling from Eilat to markets in Asia. Control of this choke point is critical to provide a relief valve for if (when) Iranian actions threaten the Strait of Hormuz. This is the same reason for US military buildup in locations such as Djibouti and missile strikes against “terrorists” in Yemen.
Somalia has no known oil reserves but Conoco, Chev(Tex) and Amoco are itching to commence exploration and drilling and already have signed exclusive contracts.
“If you think western democracy and all that relatively free markets have given you is so terrible why don't you sell your cars/houses/ etc and take your families to one of the many alternatives”
This is such a common failing in debate. “I dare to discuss the failings of the system within which I operate therefore I should reject all components of the system.”
You are clutching at straws with this line my friend. If you take the time to read my posts, I have NEVER commented on the merits of “relatively free markets”. You are attempting to debate an argument I have never made. “Free markets” can operate independently from the geopolitical shadow plays that are a hallmark of modern western empire building.
Last edited by oicur12.again; 28th Feb 2011 at 21:12.
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oicur, would you mind using the quote button. Just above where you are typing your text, 3rd from the right.
Put your cursor over the start of where you want to highlight, hold the left mouse button down and drag it to the end of the text, release your mouse button and then click on that third button.
Put your cursor over the start of where you want to highlight, hold the left mouse button down and drag it to the end of the text, release your mouse button and then click on that third button.
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Chimbu mate,
If you cant see the resource wars unfolding in front of your very own eyes then you have not been paying attention.
The US/UK/western allied war machine will roll on doing whatever damage is required in order to secure energy on the right terms and sold on the right market for the right reasons.
Africa will become a bigger player in the oil game than before and positioning the military might as this unfolds is already happening.
Terrorism is the new communism, it will be used to divert the sheeples attention until one day the terrorists will be defeated. It will be the same day that the oil runs out, coincidently.
If you cant see the resource wars unfolding in front of your very own eyes then you have not been paying attention.
The US/UK/western allied war machine will roll on doing whatever damage is required in order to secure energy on the right terms and sold on the right market for the right reasons.
Africa will become a bigger player in the oil game than before and positioning the military might as this unfolds is already happening.
Terrorism is the new communism, it will be used to divert the sheeples attention until one day the terrorists will be defeated. It will be the same day that the oil runs out, coincidently.