Decommissioning ground navaids
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Decommissioning ground navaids
Found this tucked away in the 'industry forums' section of the ASA website.
At the very end of
http://www.airservices.gov.au/projec.../workshop4.pdf
there is this table
By my count there are about 90 VORs and about 270 NDBs at this time, meaning that ASA intend to remove half of the ground-based navaids within about 6 years.
GNSS is wonderfull (if you've got it), but when I'm in IMC outback, it's comforting to know that there is a ground station somewhere near my track.
At the very end of
http://www.airservices.gov.au/projec.../workshop4.pdf
there is this table
Navigation Aid Network
Proposed Decommissioned Year VOR NDB
09/10 0 0
10/11 6 6
11/12 13 17
12/13 3 29
13/14 9 23
14/15 5 18
15/16 8 44
16/17 0 19
Total 44 156
Total Savings $120M
Proposed Decommissioned Year VOR NDB
09/10 0 0
10/11 6 6
11/12 13 17
12/13 3 29
13/14 9 23
14/15 5 18
15/16 8 44
16/17 0 19
Total 44 156
Total Savings $120M
GNSS is wonderfull (if you've got it), but when I'm in IMC outback, it's comforting to know that there is a ground station somewhere near my track.
The Nav aids are an important backup if you lose RAIM or the yanks switch off the GPS when they can't afford to maintain it anymore 
I think we need Dick Smith to bring this one into the public arena.
As a nation we need to be autonomous in regards to our aviation infrastructure. Relying on another nation to support our navigational capability is asking for trouble.
While it's not my cup of tea flying an NDB approach in anger, in many places I used to traverse, it was my only option.
I was upset when the switched off the NDB at Perth. The aeroplanes I used to fly when turning onto the arc did not have an RMI that I could tune and select the VOR. The arcs became a messy affair after that.
I think we need Dick Smith to bring this one into the public arena.
As a nation we need to be autonomous in regards to our aviation infrastructure. Relying on another nation to support our navigational capability is asking for trouble.
While it's not my cup of tea flying an NDB approach in anger, in many places I used to traverse, it was my only option.
I was upset when the switched off the NDB at Perth. The aeroplanes I used to fly when turning onto the arc did not have an RMI that I could tune and select the VOR. The arcs became a messy affair after that.
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I think most states now around the world use GPS (clock synchronising) for cellphone networks, major financial transactions and quite a lot of SAR type stuff. Seems fair enough for aviation to use it too for all except the most important terminal areas.
It is an unfortunate truth that ground-based navaids are expensive to run (power requirements), and repair (imagine the cost of getting 2 technicians to Birdsville or Balgo).
With our industry continually pushing for efficiencies, those talking loudest get heard the most. This translates to "those paying AsA the most money" (i.e. QF, DJ, JQ etc).
Ground based aids at Birdsville or Balgo are of no use to them, so they naturally baulk at paying for them. For that matter, aids at Ballarat, Port Augusta, Casino and Kiingaroy are of little or no use to them either.
This raises the question - who will pay?
Unfortunately the extinction of NDB's and VOR's is only a matter of time. In PNG now, I think all except 2 or 3 NDB's are gone.
If you are considering buying an aircraft now, forget about an ADF; make sure it has two 530's.
With our industry continually pushing for efficiencies, those talking loudest get heard the most. This translates to "those paying AsA the most money" (i.e. QF, DJ, JQ etc).
Ground based aids at Birdsville or Balgo are of no use to them, so they naturally baulk at paying for them. For that matter, aids at Ballarat, Port Augusta, Casino and Kiingaroy are of little or no use to them either.
This raises the question - who will pay?
Unfortunately the extinction of NDB's and VOR's is only a matter of time. In PNG now, I think all except 2 or 3 NDB's are gone.
If you are considering buying an aircraft now, forget about an ADF; make sure it has two 530's.
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I,ve been using IFR GPS,s since the late 80's. However much I like them and like knowing I'm on track, I still don"t 100% trust them without some ground aids for confirmation that I'm where I think I am.I've also had several screen failures as well as Raim failures and resorting to DR mode. I don't want see NDB.s closed down .
There's a NOTAM out about modernising of ground based navaids, as many will probably know. They're shutting down old equipment but also putting up new NDBs and VORs - as far as I know the ground based aids will be around for a good few years yet.
Met a bloke up at TNK last year who was going around the country setting up NDB towers and getting them working, had the wife and kids (home schooling) in a nice Winnebago setup and was following the work round Australia over a period of years. Nice people, looked like he had the right gear and knew what he was doing too!
So our navaids should be in reasonable nick.
Met a bloke up at TNK last year who was going around the country setting up NDB towers and getting them working, had the wife and kids (home schooling) in a nice Winnebago setup and was following the work round Australia over a period of years. Nice people, looked like he had the right gear and knew what he was doing too!
So our navaids should be in reasonable nick.
I don't want see NDB.s closed down
The Airlines are not interested in NDB, the current generation out of the Airbus and Boeing factories of A380, A320 B777 don't have ADF as standard equipment. It is an expensive option to have one installed for no benefit in first world countries.
VOR/DME probably have many years left in them as the back up, but their days are also numbered.
yanks switch off the GPS
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The real question is how much extra would you be happy to pay to keep them?
)
And that is why it will be closed down. The public see the rational if they use it for airline operations when they buy the ticket to ride.
The airline can say we don't need it or want it but can give you a cheaper ticket if we don't pay for nav aids we don't use. Cheaper tickets or tax cuts are always going to have Joe Public on their side.
The public see GA as a rich man's play thing (I know it is not, and you know it is not but that is the perception).
The airline can say we don't need it or want it but can give you a cheaper ticket if we don't pay for nav aids we don't use. Cheaper tickets or tax cuts are always going to have Joe Public on their side.
The public see GA as a rich man's play thing (I know it is not, and you know it is not but that is the perception).
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The Nav aids are an important backup if you lose RAIM or the yanks switch off the GPS when they can't afford to maintain it anymore
Can we assume that given they'll be removed that they will also be removed off the Instrument Renewal? Afterall I haven't been asked how to use a sextant lately.
The IR used to hang off the NDB rating. No longer the case - either NDB or VOR will do.
For renewal purposes, the ILS covers the VOR - so ILS and GPS RNAV and you are good to go.
Dr
PS: So says he who hangs onto the NDB like a security blanket.
Subject to paragraph 10.5, a person seeking a particular grade of instrument
rating must in all cases satisfy the requirements of the instrument rating test:
(a) for the use of the navigation aid NDB or the navigation aid VOR;
rating must in all cases satisfy the requirements of the instrument rating test:
(a) for the use of the navigation aid NDB or the navigation aid VOR;
Dr
PS: So says he who hangs onto the NDB like a security blanket.
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Originally Posted by c100driver
I asked this once at a PBN symposium and was told this was never going to happen as John Doe would never get his pizza delivered. GPS in the US is intrinsically linked to the entire economy, shipping on the inter-coastal waterway, trucking, railways, parcel delivery, taxi operations, farming, road users etc are all so dependant on GPS that it would be political suicide for any party to turn it off. One fact that the speaker quoted was that aviation does not even makeup 1% of the users of GPS in the US economy.
from https://www.faasafety.gov/files/noti...L11-01_Rel.pdf
Ah well.....I guess its back to the ole ADF and the ABC broadcast stns for moi....They are the stronger signals around & I know where the transmitting antennas are.....
Cheers
Cheers
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FTDK
You sure about that forkie? My ATO down here AD reckons you have to do ILS and VOR and whatever else in a renewal.
Recent exp yes but not renewal.
Anyone know for sure?
You sure about that forkie? My ATO down here AD reckons you have to do ILS and VOR and whatever else in a renewal.
Recent exp yes but not renewal.
Anyone know for sure?
Jabba,
Forky is right, ILS covers your VOR. So in a renewal you only have to do an ILS, RNAV and an NDB to get all the aids.
I haven't done a VOR approach under test conditions since my initial issue 8 years ago.
morno
Forky is right, ILS covers your VOR. So in a renewal you only have to do an ILS, RNAV and an NDB to get all the aids.
I haven't done a VOR approach under test conditions since my initial issue 8 years ago.
morno
What I'd be fairly interested to know (without making "the sky is falling" sorts of noises) is, has anyone or any group studied the likely scenario if solar storms become unusually intense, and how likely is it that a number of satellites might be taken out by a solar flare?
Solar flares have been energetic enough in the past to shut down power grids. People I know who are interested in this sort of thing, and study the Sun, tell me that the experts in these matters reckon the next cycle of solar flares are going to be unusually intense.
If so, would it be such a good idea to be decommissioning so many ground based aids?
Solar flares have been energetic enough in the past to shut down power grids. People I know who are interested in this sort of thing, and study the Sun, tell me that the experts in these matters reckon the next cycle of solar flares are going to be unusually intense.
If so, would it be such a good idea to be decommissioning so many ground based aids?
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Whoever sees A Dunbar next.....ask him.
Of course being the kind of guy he is he will take it on board and either shoot you down or acknowledge your contribution.
however..............I think THIS will be the answer.
In the Renewal you HAVE to do an NDB or VOR. Given the comments previous were ADF/NDB is going the way of the Dodo, you will find folk....like forie with a U/S ADF (if its not all fixed) and the Retard Vehicle (Cricket receiverless) who do not partake in NDB's, they have to do a VOR instead, and if you want a ILS and RNAV they also have to be done. Just doing the ILS and an RNAV does not cut it.
Thinks ADF'less for a bit.
hey Morno....beaut day down here...no storms what does that mean?
Of course being the kind of guy he is he will take it on board and either shoot you down or acknowledge your contribution.
however..............I think THIS will be the answer.
In the Renewal you HAVE to do an NDB or VOR. Given the comments previous were ADF/NDB is going the way of the Dodo, you will find folk....like forie with a U/S ADF (if its not all fixed) and the Retard Vehicle (Cricket receiverless) who do not partake in NDB's, they have to do a VOR instead, and if you want a ILS and RNAV they also have to be done. Just doing the ILS and an RNAV does not cut it.
Thinks ADF'less for a bit.
hey Morno....beaut day down here...no storms
what does that mean?
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Zeke
Posting only part of the real picture. If this is the same link as one I read a week back its only a very small part of the planet involved in those tests.
J
Posting only part of the real picture. If this is the same link as one I read a week back its only a very small part of the planet involved in those tests.J