U.s. Continental Engine Co. Sold To Chinese Interests.
I will be pleasantly surprised if the Revetec motor make it to endurance trials. I've watched one "revolutionary" motor fail for technical reasons.
The key is going to be vibration characteristics and the associated dynamic effects (torsional and linear) on all those shafts, gears, cams and bearings.
When the design fails it is usually put down to "abnormal wear", which means that the dynamics gang up on one component that cannot be kept intact for any length of time without over designing it.
Variable displacement "swash plate" petrol engines fail this way time after time because the loads on the plate main bearing are rather larger and more complex than designers expect.
After vibration comes noise an harshness. Everyone loves the sound of a V8 or big Six. Do you really want to use an engine that makes a noise like chalk being scratched on a blackboard? The general public won't.
The key is going to be vibration characteristics and the associated dynamic effects (torsional and linear) on all those shafts, gears, cams and bearings.
When the design fails it is usually put down to "abnormal wear", which means that the dynamics gang up on one component that cannot be kept intact for any length of time without over designing it.
Variable displacement "swash plate" petrol engines fail this way time after time because the loads on the plate main bearing are rather larger and more complex than designers expect.
After vibration comes noise an harshness. Everyone loves the sound of a V8 or big Six. Do you really want to use an engine that makes a noise like chalk being scratched on a blackboard? The general public won't.
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BEACH KING
Post Of The Year material there mate! 
If I were you, and I am sure your accountant will agree now would be a good time to order a brand new engine and pickle it for when you need one next!
Many have tried to offer, and design more efficient alternatives to traditional engines in the 180-300hp range, but have failed... by and large. (think Thielert).
Engine rpms above 3000, reduction gearboxes, and liquid cooling add unnecessary reliability, maintenance and weight problems in comparison to the traditional/dated technology.
Are the current Cont/Lycom engines THAT inefficient??
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker 10
God knows the Diesel in my Mercedes develos more horsepower and Torque than a TSIO 520 and it is only 3.2 litres.
You reckon? The 2010 Mercedes model produces 231HP and 540nm of torque.
My IO520 gives me 285hp and 790nm. A closer comparison would be the worlds most powerful 6 cylinder production diesel engine made by BMW, the 3.0 sd twin turbo, that produces 289Hp and 565nm of torque. I have this fine engine in my X5.
Take ya Merc, or my X5, on the Nullabour and hold it flat out, so that it is using all of it's available power and torque and electronics and multiple valves and camshafts....and see
1. how much fuel it is using
2. How hot does it run
3. how long can it do it before it blows up.
Pretty sure you wil find that:
1. between 40-50 LPH
2. that hot that it will shut down
3. no where near 2000 hours
And your Merc engine weighs 49kg heavier than the IO520 without it's cooling system and fluid.
The concerns I have with regard to Chinese takeover of TCM relate to WHO oversees and has authority over quality control.
In a perfect world, the quality would be better, and the engines cheaper due to lower labour costs. It's a pity that we don't live in a perfect world.
Engine rpms above 3000, reduction gearboxes, and liquid cooling add unnecessary reliability, maintenance and weight problems in comparison to the traditional/dated technology.
Are the current Cont/Lycom engines THAT inefficient??
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker 10
God knows the Diesel in my Mercedes develos more horsepower and Torque than a TSIO 520 and it is only 3.2 litres.
You reckon? The 2010 Mercedes model produces 231HP and 540nm of torque.
My IO520 gives me 285hp and 790nm. A closer comparison would be the worlds most powerful 6 cylinder production diesel engine made by BMW, the 3.0 sd twin turbo, that produces 289Hp and 565nm of torque. I have this fine engine in my X5.
Take ya Merc, or my X5, on the Nullabour and hold it flat out, so that it is using all of it's available power and torque and electronics and multiple valves and camshafts....and see
1. how much fuel it is using
2. How hot does it run
3. how long can it do it before it blows up.
Pretty sure you wil find that:
1. between 40-50 LPH
2. that hot that it will shut down
3. no where near 2000 hours
And your Merc engine weighs 49kg heavier than the IO520 without it's cooling system and fluid.
The concerns I have with regard to Chinese takeover of TCM relate to WHO oversees and has authority over quality control.
In a perfect world, the quality would be better, and the engines cheaper due to lower labour costs. It's a pity that we don't live in a perfect world.
If I were you, and I am sure your accountant will agree now would be a good time to order a brand new engine and pickle it for when you need one next!
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Thats because Cessna own Lycoming
An excellent BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) for a well-developed, 4-stroke naturally-aspirated, high-performance liquid-cooled engine at 100% power is in the neighborhood of 0.44 – 0.45. Claims of gasoline engine BSFC values less than 0.42 at max power tend to be suspect. At reduced power settings (in the region of 70% and below) BSFC values of 0.38 have been achieved.
The operator manual for a 300 HP Lycoming IO-540-K, L, or M series engine shows a full power fuel flow of 24 GPH which is a BSFC of 0.474 and a Thermal Efficiency of 28.3%. Those numbers aren't too bad for an air cooled engine which meets the FAR-required detonation margins. However, the turbocharged TIO-540-V2AD requires a MINIMUM of 39.2 GPH at 350 HP for a BSFC of 0.663 and a TE of 20.4%. Avoiding detonation at high power eats fuel, literally.
The most efficient piston engine is a marine diesel of 108,920 horse power with BSFC of .278 at max power, dropping to .26 at max economy, and a thermal efficiency of over 50%. It's advantages are one of low frictional losses (piston speed, windage, bearings) due to an operating speed of 102 RPM at max power, and a low of 7 RPM.
Thats because Cessna own Lycoming Brian. Wouldn't make much sense in using Continentals now would it!
Thread Starter
From the 'Wikipedia' site-
""Textron" (“Tex" for "textiles," and "tron" for "synthetics") became the official name"
Textron also owns Bell helicopters, Lycoming, Continental, Cessna,.....etc etc
Ya wanna do business with the 'opposition'....What opposition..??
Capitalism at work....
""Textron" (“Tex" for "textiles," and "tron" for "synthetics") became the official name"
Textron also owns Bell helicopters, Lycoming, Continental, Cessna,.....etc etc
Ya wanna do business with the 'opposition'....What opposition..??
Capitalism at work....
Textron also owns Bell helicopters, Lycoming, Continental, Cessna,.....etc etc
Capitalism at work....
Thread Starter
Thankyou Peter....oops My mistake!!
Cheers
'The Alternative'..??
Somehow, I got to actually LIKE competition......
Too much 'capitalism' ain't good as far as I can tell..??
We don't seem to have a lot of 'choice' these days - especially from some quarters..
Cheers
'The Alternative'..??
Somehow, I got to actually LIKE competition......
Too much 'capitalism' ain't good as far as I can tell..??
We don't seem to have a lot of 'choice' these days - especially from some quarters..
BTW, despite Textron being the parent company of both Cessna and Lycoming, Cessna chose the Continental O-200D for the Skysnatcher.
Perhaps Continental will shift O-200D production to China so Cessna can import the completed aircraft rather than just the airframe!
Perhaps Continental will shift O-200D production to China so Cessna can import the completed aircraft rather than just the airframe!
The most efficient piston engine is a marine diesel of 108,920 horse power with BSFC of .278 at max power, dropping to .26 at max economy, and a thermal efficiency of over 50%. It's advantages are one of low frictional losses (piston speed, windage, bearings) due to an operating speed of 102 RPM at max power, and a low of 7 RPM.
As I see it, it could go one of two ways. Complete disaster with Cintinental engines habding over the entire market to Lycomming, or Continental, under the control of the Chinese really picking its act up. It depends on which group of Chinese are pulling the levers.
The smart group of Chinese are not fools, they know a good market oportunity when they see it. Traditionaly, good from China have been cheap copies, with little inovation. The Hifi industry has seen this happen, but in the last 5 years, the amount of seriously good high end stuff comming out of China is staggering. They are seruous players in the hi hend market but were only recently dismissed by the traditional makers of high end stuff as little competition. How things have changed.
However, if I were one of the component makers, I would be worried. The Chinese will simply not tolerate sloppy production. Look at teh crankshaft saga of a few years ago, where thousands of crankshafts were pruduced that did not match the desighn specifications. Any engineer will tell you that the engines are not not well put together at the factory and the amount of variance beteween parts is staggering.
The fundamental desighn of the engines is sound and wel proven, Its just they cant make parts and engines that exactly match the drawings.
Id love to see what the latest direct fuel injection technology could do to aero engines efficiency. The latest Mercedes version actually looks at the combustion process as it happens (each power stroke) and can add up to 5 more fuel squirts to tweek it.
The smart group of Chinese are not fools, they know a good market oportunity when they see it. Traditionaly, good from China have been cheap copies, with little inovation. The Hifi industry has seen this happen, but in the last 5 years, the amount of seriously good high end stuff comming out of China is staggering. They are seruous players in the hi hend market but were only recently dismissed by the traditional makers of high end stuff as little competition. How things have changed.
However, if I were one of the component makers, I would be worried. The Chinese will simply not tolerate sloppy production. Look at teh crankshaft saga of a few years ago, where thousands of crankshafts were pruduced that did not match the desighn specifications. Any engineer will tell you that the engines are not not well put together at the factory and the amount of variance beteween parts is staggering.
The fundamental desighn of the engines is sound and wel proven, Its just they cant make parts and engines that exactly match the drawings.
Id love to see what the latest direct fuel injection technology could do to aero engines efficiency. The latest Mercedes version actually looks at the combustion process as it happens (each power stroke) and can add up to 5 more fuel squirts to tweek it.
The trouble with the Chinese investment is going to be exactly the same problem that has given us the "counterfeit spare parts problem".
That is the overwhelming temptation when seeing an item , for example what appears to be a simple washer, shaft or pin, that has a list price of $350.00, to make a copy for $2.00 and sell it as the genuine article.
Without being racist, that temptation has overwhelmed many Europeans who ought to have known better, but that same temptation applied in China will be simply, completely, irresistible.
In China there is no concept of loyalty to anyone outside ones own family, let alone the concept of responsibility to an unknown foreign customer - hence the putting of melamine in baby formula.
Once the Continental parts inventory is "polluted" by Chinese manufactured items, forget the engine.
That is the overwhelming temptation when seeing an item , for example what appears to be a simple washer, shaft or pin, that has a list price of $350.00, to make a copy for $2.00 and sell it as the genuine article.
Without being racist, that temptation has overwhelmed many Europeans who ought to have known better, but that same temptation applied in China will be simply, completely, irresistible.
In China there is no concept of loyalty to anyone outside ones own family, let alone the concept of responsibility to an unknown foreign customer - hence the putting of melamine in baby formula.
Once the Continental parts inventory is "polluted" by Chinese manufactured items, forget the engine.
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The Porsche engine was a good Eg of what could be done with a more sophisticated engine when put in to an A/C but it really didn't 'take-off' that well as far as I can see due a few reasons, one no doubt being most don't trust 'change' as well as spares wouldn't have been in the local milk bar like they are with the old clunkers
Avweb article FADEC Fantasies
"If we have learned anything about the GA market," says Lycoming's head engineer, Rick Moffett, "it's that it's extremely price sensitive. People just aren't going to spend $20,000 for an engine control system." Anyone who doubts that merely needs to recall Mooney's PFM experience.
Second-and ignoring the retrofit market-these systems will capitalize on the flexibility and capability of state-of-the-art digital electronics to produce an integrated system that includes sexy cockpit displays and, no doubt, onboard diagnostics of some kind.
Even at that, Moffett says meeting the price point will be a tall order. Ridding a current engine of its conventional mags and harnesses, injector servo, flow dividers, waste gates plus such cockpit instrumentation as manifold pressure, tachs and engine gauges will have to save enough money to pay for -or at least almost pay for-the new electronics.
"If we hit it within five percent, we'll consider ourselves successful," says Moffett. Add up the cost of all that conventional hardware and you you'll arrive at some idea of what a retrofit FADEC for an older airplane would cost: Our guess is between $6000 and $10,000.
Second-and ignoring the retrofit market-these systems will capitalize on the flexibility and capability of state-of-the-art digital electronics to produce an integrated system that includes sexy cockpit displays and, no doubt, onboard diagnostics of some kind.
Even at that, Moffett says meeting the price point will be a tall order. Ridding a current engine of its conventional mags and harnesses, injector servo, flow dividers, waste gates plus such cockpit instrumentation as manifold pressure, tachs and engine gauges will have to save enough money to pay for -or at least almost pay for-the new electronics.
"If we hit it within five percent, we'll consider ourselves successful," says Moffett. Add up the cost of all that conventional hardware and you you'll arrive at some idea of what a retrofit FADEC for an older airplane would cost: Our guess is between $6000 and $10,000.
