Instrument Rating Test -NDB approach criteria
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Instrument Rating Test -NDB approach criteria
Question. An NDB approach is required during the conduct of a command instrument rating renewal. The approach is in the FMC data base. The pilot elects to use LNAV coupled to autopilot or he may choose to use heading select mode to "crawl" along the magenta line. Even if he has the NDB identified (or even turned off) with triple GPS running the show, would CASA accept this technique to tick off the appropriate box (NDB) on the CASA test form? In other words is this a valid test of the pilot's competency to conduct an NDB approach.
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Depends on aircraft setup. B737 and 777 we select NDB app in the fmc and fly it in Lnav/Vnav. You must still monitor raw data though. If no NDB app is available you may select an overlay. eg ML 16 NDB we select the 16 ILS Y approach which flys the same track inbound and descen profile except it descends from memory .2 nm early but still keeping you above the min altitude until intercepting the 3 deg profile.
I have not flown a manual raw data only NDB in more than 10 years yet have it on my license. Both Boeing aircraft are twin fmc/IRS/GPS though? not sure about aircraft without all this gear?
I have not flown a manual raw data only NDB in more than 10 years yet have it on my license. Both Boeing aircraft are twin fmc/IRS/GPS though? not sure about aircraft without all this gear?
Last edited by fmcinop; 4th Dec 2010 at 20:07.
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Anything is fine as long as you monitor the raw data. There is no provision for flying overlay approaches solely with an RNAV system in the AIP/Jepp - you must always have the required navaids selected and identified. That doesn't stop you from using the RNAV systems to fly it.
If you were flying LNAV and the ADF went >5 degrees would you then have to turn to intercept a 5 degree tolerance? Similarly you're flying in LNAV and the aid fails I assume you then have to go around. That's my understanding of it anyhow.
The ADF would be the primary aid. If you follow the GPS and the ADF misbehaves as they do and you go outside of five degrees error, even though both the GPS and common sense have you on track, you would have to discontinue the approach. If you are in a Sim, not a problem but if you are in a real aircraft around the coast or mountains or at the wrong time of day, following the GPS will get you in but not a pass. The allowable error between the GPS and the ADF is 6.9 degrees but the tolerance for the NDB approach is only 5.
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I believe that according to CASA each aid you have to be tested on during a CIR must also require a demo of a holding pattern on that aid. Put another way, you must demonstrate competency. Since the applicant can fly LNAV on autopilot to qualify as competent for an NDB endorsement does that also mean that all holding patterns can also be conducted on autopilot and in LNAV. And then by definition you as the pilot are competent despite the automatics having done everything? Certainly it appears the skill standards required of pilots to pass a CIR have been gradually lowered with the introduction of automation.
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Standard may be lowered in some areas but has been raised in others. Many new machines arriving in OZ aren't even fitted with ADF.
No need to have a crack at the "modern" pilot.
Bbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzz
No need to have a crack at the "modern" pilot.
Bbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzz
would CASA accept this technique to tick off the appropriate box (NDB) on the CASA test form? In other words is this a valid test of the pilot's competency to conduct an NDB approach.
Arrive at a place where the VOR and DME are OOS. Only NDB available. Waddya gunna do then, Bloggs?
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I believe that according to CASA each aid you have to be tested on during a CIR must also require a demo of a holding pattern on that aid.
I don't see what the big deal is here. Using the NDB aid as yr primary tracking device is all that's required. Probably only OZ is one of the few places on the planet where we need to do such an out of date approach when FMGC's are there to enhance safety. Choosing to use a certain level of automation means you increase the chances of staying within tolerances, if it's there use it!. Nobody would want a transport cat A/C being hand flown using raw data only in adverse conditions when automation is there designed & built in, allowable & does it a hell of a lot better than any human.
I've flow more NDB's that I care to recall in fowl wx & in some A/C where the NDB was a cut out version from a glossy mag of the latest King unit glued to the panel (well felt like it!) & it proves nothing more than it's damn dangerous ! The only single thing I ever liked about a NDB was that you knew where the station was at all times.
.......as that saying goes..............way of the future, why fight it?:-)
Wmk2
I've flow more NDB's that I care to recall in fowl wx & in some A/C where the NDB was a cut out version from a glossy mag of the latest King unit glued to the panel (well felt like it!) & it proves nothing more than it's damn dangerous ! The only single thing I ever liked about a NDB was that you knew where the station was at all times.
.......as that saying goes..............way of the future, why fight it?:-)
Wmk2
Up here on 'the Island' we still hold ADF on our licence but because it is renewed on a type with a 'glass cockpit' using LNAV and VNAV it is restricted to type specific only. In other words, I can't hire a Baron and go and fly a fixed card NDB. On my Aussie licence I can, because I do the renewal in a light twin with only the basics. Makes sense to me because the two methods of completing the let-down are worlds apart in skill level.
.............good pick up there "TM"............I get a bit dyslexic at times so I ask da udder pilot to make sure I put the gear down & not up when required hence I get my 'fowl's mixed up
No 'fowl' strikes as yet but shall keep an eye out for flying steggles:-)
Wmk2
No 'fowl' strikes as yet but shall keep an eye out for flying steggles:-)
Wmk2
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I'm with mk2 on this, if it's in the plane use it, then hire yourself a sim and practice your failures in there. NDB is a great situational awareness tool even when you aren't flying an NDB approach, will be sorry to see them go.
Get with the program, fly overlays
Get with the program, fly overlays
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There does not need to be provision in the AIP etc to fly an overlay Lnav/VNav approach so long as the overlaid profile and track are the same as the approach you are wanting to fly.. Yes you must monitor raw data and gauge your tracking tolerances off that raw data as was stated in my original post.
The boeing flight crew training manual has a few pages dedicated to such a proceedure. I did it not that long ago with CASA watching in the back.
We have been doing these types off approach for years and they are conducted around the world every day. yes holding patterns are also flown with Lnav.
Does this degrade pilot skills, sure, try long haul where we do 15 - 20 landings a year. I too spent many years bush bashing and have flown more manual approaches than I can remember, but the challenge today is management of the aircraft, the crew and the automation. You adapt to the aircraft you are operating at the time.
These sort of approaches may not be available in other aircraft types or set ups, but in at least the 737 & 777 they are.
The boeing flight crew training manual has a few pages dedicated to such a proceedure. I did it not that long ago with CASA watching in the back.
We have been doing these types off approach for years and they are conducted around the world every day. yes holding patterns are also flown with Lnav.
Does this degrade pilot skills, sure, try long haul where we do 15 - 20 landings a year. I too spent many years bush bashing and have flown more manual approaches than I can remember, but the challenge today is management of the aircraft, the crew and the automation. You adapt to the aircraft you are operating at the time.
These sort of approaches may not be available in other aircraft types or set ups, but in at least the 737 & 777 they are.
Nobody is arguing (I hope) that, when the weather was fowl , one would do an NDB in Track and VS using only raw data in a modern aeroplane. The issue here is whether a renewal of "NDB" on your licence should be valid if you simply watched the aeroplane do an overlay approach in LNAV and VNAV.
There are no skills required to watch such a thing happen and therefore I don't believe "NDB" should be revalidated unless you do do one without the magenta lines.
By all means, get rid of NDBs. But if you need them for planning purposes, then you should be able to fly them with no "aids".
, one would do an NDB in Track and VS using only raw data in a modern aeroplane. The issue here is whether a renewal of "NDB" on your licence should be valid if you simply watched the aeroplane do an overlay approach in LNAV and VNAV.There are no skills required to watch such a thing happen and therefore I don't believe "NDB" should be revalidated unless you do do one without the magenta lines.
By all means, get rid of NDBs. But if you need them for planning purposes, then you should be able to fly them with no "aids".
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no skill required to do a coupled ILS either or an Autoland either.
We only have to demo 1 raw data asymmetric Hand flown ILS. Not that hard to with a track line, vertical profile and thrust asymmetry compensation. Perhaps we should get rid of that as well.
Perhaps we should all do our IR renewals with a fixed card ADF with manually operated loop antenna. We could also ditch the radio and use morse code.
My point is as times and technologies change so must we. Talk to the guys who flew around in DC3's. They recon we have it easy now with HSI's and RMI's, Tcas, Transponders and the like.
A number of companies (ours included) are working on having the requirement for the NDB removed once and for all. Never going to do one in Sydney, LA, or Heathrow! With GPS, IRS, FMC's and 6 independent power sources on the 777 even if you diverted with an emergency the statistical probability of ever only having that one approach available would be almost 0. Otherwise lets bring back DME homing! Now that was fun!
We only have to demo 1 raw data asymmetric Hand flown ILS. Not that hard to with a track line, vertical profile and thrust asymmetry compensation. Perhaps we should get rid of that as well.
Perhaps we should all do our IR renewals with a fixed card ADF with manually operated loop antenna. We could also ditch the radio and use morse code.
My point is as times and technologies change so must we. Talk to the guys who flew around in DC3's. They recon we have it easy now with HSI's and RMI's, Tcas, Transponders and the like.
A number of companies (ours included) are working on having the requirement for the NDB removed once and for all. Never going to do one in Sydney, LA, or Heathrow! With GPS, IRS, FMC's and 6 independent power sources on the 777 even if you diverted with an emergency the statistical probability of ever only having that one approach available would be almost 0. Otherwise lets bring back DME homing! Now that was fun!
There is no CASA requirement to have NBD on your instrument rating. This requirement was removed a number of years ago, however I can't recall exactly when.
Your company ops manual may require it and it might be necessary for flight planning and alternate purposes.
Your company ops manual may require it and it might be necessary for flight planning and alternate purposes.
There is no CASA requirement to have NBD on your instrument rating.
Dr
PS: I have only flown 3 x NDB approaches in anger in the 25+ years that I have held a CIR!
Can't imagine I will ever fly another one either - other than for currency (Why do I bother?) or renewals (Why DO I bother?).
no skill required to do a coupled ILS either or an Autoland either.
A number of companies (ours included) are working on having the requirement for the NDB removed once and for all.