Forced Landing Marree 14/11/2010
Lets get the facts straight the aircraft had been aquired by another company not associated with the Airtex group, it was operated by a company outside NSW.
MKK PIPER AIRCRAFT CORP PA-31 PA-31-350 31-7652068 3175 2 TEXTRON LYCOMING Piston TIO-540-J2BD Gasoline Full Registration MELREAM PTY LIMITED 79 Bettington Rd OATLANDS NSW 2117 AUSTRALIA 22-Jul-10 AVTEX AIR SERVICES PTY LTD Locked Bag 10 GEORGES HALL NSW 2198 AUSTRALIA 22-Jul-10 29-Jun-76 TRICYCLE-RETRACTABLE Power Driven Aeroplane Normal HARTZELL PROPELLERS HC-E3YR-2A A20SO UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1976
Avtex/Airtex are one & the same as far as I know.
Landed in a creek bed (in a f234g creek bed out there) with Dunlop's down. It beggars belief.
Ignored a fully serviceable bituminous road 1.5 off track.
DF.
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8 EN-ROUTE CLIMB PERFORMANCE
8.1 Multi-engined aeroplanes engaged in charter operations under the Instrument
Flight Rules or aerial work operations under the Instrument Flight Rules must
have the ability to climb with a critical engine inoperative at a gradient of 1%
at all heights up to 5 000 feet in the standard atmosphere in the following
configuration:
(a) propeller of inoperative engine stopped;
(b) undercarriage (if retractable) and flaps retracted;
(c) remaining engine(s) operating at maximum continuous power;
(d) airspeed not less than 1.2 VS.8
8.1 Multi-engined aeroplanes engaged in charter operations under the Instrument
Flight Rules or aerial work operations under the Instrument Flight Rules must
have the ability to climb with a critical engine inoperative at a gradient of 1%
at all heights up to 5 000 feet in the standard atmosphere in the following
configuration:
(a) propeller of inoperative engine stopped;
(b) undercarriage (if retractable) and flaps retracted;
(c) remaining engine(s) operating at maximum continuous power;
(d) airspeed not less than 1.2 VS.8
whoooop1991 you keept getting it wrong.
Heron Airlines Travel Pty is a totally seperate entity from Airtex/Avtex. Do a compnay search.
The reality is Heron Airlines is the one that choses the aircraft and operator.
They have been using a variety of operators including Do228's from Melbourne, Beech 1900's from Malaysia, Metro II's from Sydney and approxiametly 5 different operators/aircraft in the Chieftain category.
As such they have provided employment for a large number of pilots etc in an industry that has been in decline for the last 20 years.
Heron Airlines Travel Pty is a totally seperate entity from Airtex/Avtex. Do a compnay search.
The reality is Heron Airlines is the one that choses the aircraft and operator.
They have been using a variety of operators including Do228's from Melbourne, Beech 1900's from Malaysia, Metro II's from Sydney and approxiametly 5 different operators/aircraft in the Chieftain category.
As such they have provided employment for a large number of pilots etc in an industry that has been in decline for the last 20 years.
What ambient conditions?
DEAF
I see your point - however I read that as meaning a pressure height of 5,000'.
You will also note, reading the CAO in its entirety, that it states an aircraft must be loaded in such a way that it can comply with the stated performance requirements.
Selective quoting, or reading paras in isolation, will always lead to misinterpretation
Again, Part 20 of the CAOs does not deal with aircraft certification. CAO 20.7.4 specifically deals with the performance required for Multi-engine aircraft aircraft operating AWK and CHTR and Single-engine aircraft operating RPT.
What /Temp/Pressure Height situation do they mean by standard atmosphere?
You will also note, reading the CAO in its entirety, that it states an aircraft must be loaded in such a way that it can comply with the stated performance requirements.
Selective quoting, or reading paras in isolation, will always lead to misinterpretation
Again, Part 20 of the CAOs does not deal with aircraft certification. CAO 20.7.4 specifically deals with the performance required for Multi-engine aircraft aircraft operating AWK and CHTR and Single-engine aircraft operating RPT.
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 17th Nov 2010 at 18:33.
Green Goblin if these rules mysteriously don't apply anymore, why am I asked at every MECIR renewal how to re-calculate approach minimas if the ambient conditions won't deliver the required performance?
I would hazard a guess that if these types of charts were mandated, an aeroplane such as a PA31 would never leave the ground with more than a passenger and full mains when the temp was ISA +. Generally the only consideration is the MTOW and MLW and how much distance will be required for the takeoff and landing.
It is prudent planning to add to the minima to ensure the 2.5% climb gradient is satisfied in an instrument approach, and it would be foolhardy not too (especially in IMC on one donk!). If you are in VMC in the takeoff component the option is always there to put her down straight ahead (terrain depending).
It would be foolhardy to even leave the MSA in IMC on one engine in a piston twin, most of the time you will have buckleys of making the missed approach altitude, and if you commenced the approach - you'd want to be pretty sure you were going to get in!
So again, I'm left asking, why, if most multi-engine piston aircraft can't comply with most of the rules OR do half the things which 99% of operators do with them already (ie. bringing them down to minima's, when they become incapable of conducting the missed approach on one engine), are they still permitted to be used in charter?
morno
morno
So again, I'm left asking, why, if most multi-engine piston aircraft can't comply with most of the rules OR do half the things which 99% of operators do with them already (ie. bringing them down to minima's, when they become incapable of conducting the missed approach on one engine), are they still permitted to be used in charter?
morno
morno
Multi engine piston aircraft can comply with the requirements in certain conditions as per their certification. The rest is up to the Pilot to make sound decisions and compromise between safety and commercial considerations. Remember these GA aeroplanes are the lifeblood of the bush and are essential infrastructure. Without being able to take the payloads, the services will grind to a halt, and GA in Australia will be dealt the final death blow.
I'll add another dynamic to the equation, yeah a piston twin may have trouble complying with missed approach climb gradients in certain conditions and may not climb after an EFATO. A PC12 or C208 (among others) are certified to fly IFR charter. They will sure as hell not make any climb gradients with the loss of an engine.........
(calling Captain Wally)
When you live....
One in IMC
It would be foolhardy to even leave the MSA in IMC on one engine in a piston twin, most of the time you will have buckleys of making the missed approach altitude, and if you commenced the approach - you'd want to be pretty sure you were going to get in!
Quote:
It would be foolhardy to even leave the MSA in IMC on one engine in a piston twin, most of the time you will have buckleys of making the missed approach altitude, and if you commenced the approach - you'd want to be pretty sure you were going to get in!
So what else would you do? Circle at MSA until making sure you had no engines left then using the SE options? Bugger off to somewhere else praying that whatever caused the first to fail wasn't about to happen to the other?
It would be foolhardy to even leave the MSA in IMC on one engine in a piston twin, most of the time you will have buckleys of making the missed approach altitude, and if you commenced the approach - you'd want to be pretty sure you were going to get in!
So what else would you do? Circle at MSA until making sure you had no engines left then using the SE options? Bugger off to somewhere else praying that whatever caused the first to fail wasn't about to happen to the other?
and why you are called a Pilot!I could tell you what I would do, but you should make the decision on the facts at hand, the situation, and any other variable that would require consideration.
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Just some thoughts.
The photo's clearly show BOTH props on the fine pitch stops.
Both pitch levers at the full forward position.
Avtex did not fix or fit the magneto.
The PIC was not Airtex trained.
Airtex had a run on turbo charger failures and associated gremlins last year (about 1 a month). All landed safely on a RUNWAY.
Go figure.
PS. Good operators restrict MTOW for PA 31 (etc) to an ASDA regulated weight and the PIC always ensures that 20.7 requirements can be met; pre departure.
Both pitch levers at the full forward position.
Avtex did not fix or fit the magneto.
The PIC was not Airtex trained.
Airtex had a run on turbo charger failures and associated gremlins last year (about 1 a month). All landed safely on a RUNWAY.
Go figure.
PS. Good operators restrict MTOW for PA 31 (etc) to an ASDA regulated weight and the PIC always ensures that 20.7 requirements can be met; pre departure.
Last edited by Kharon; 16th Nov 2010 at 09:59. Reason: serious punctuation malfunction.
GG,
I don't think I'm expressing my point well enough. Yes, I know that these aircraft ARE the lifeblood of remote Australia and yes I know that if they couldn't use them anymore, it'd be one of the final blow's to GA in Australia.
My point which I will acknowledge that I probably haven't made it clear enough if at all (poor brain had a hard weekend), is when will the Australian government realise how important GA is to remote Australia, and provide the support that is needed, to rid us of these old and decrepid aircraft that are flat out complying with any sort of requirements when the proverbial hits the fan?
If they provided support, then there'd be more opportunity for those who want to (ie. those who think that safety comes before under cutting the bloke next door) invest in new aircraft to do so. And whilst many won't agree (single vs twin, here we go), a nice new or near new C208 or PC-12, is a lot safer than an old Chieftain or C402. I have a lot of hours in PC-12's, but also have a lot of hours in numerous twins (both piston and turbine) and I have no problems at all, admitting that despite the one engine in front of me, I feel safer in a newer turbine single, than I did in piston twins. Flown correctly, a turbine single will provide you with just as many options when the donk fails, as what you would when your piston twin has one fail (with similar loads).
morno
I don't think I'm expressing my point well enough. Yes, I know that these aircraft ARE the lifeblood of remote Australia and yes I know that if they couldn't use them anymore, it'd be one of the final blow's to GA in Australia.
My point which I will acknowledge that I probably haven't made it clear enough if at all (poor brain had a hard weekend), is when will the Australian government realise how important GA is to remote Australia, and provide the support that is needed, to rid us of these old and decrepid aircraft that are flat out complying with any sort of requirements when the proverbial hits the fan?
If they provided support, then there'd be more opportunity for those who want to (ie. those who think that safety comes before under cutting the bloke next door) invest in new aircraft to do so. And whilst many won't agree (single vs twin, here we go), a nice new or near new C208 or PC-12, is a lot safer than an old Chieftain or C402. I have a lot of hours in PC-12's, but also have a lot of hours in numerous twins (both piston and turbine) and I have no problems at all, admitting that despite the one engine in front of me, I feel safer in a newer turbine single, than I did in piston twins. Flown correctly, a turbine single will provide you with just as many options when the donk fails, as what you would when your piston twin has one fail (with similar loads).
morno
Well morno, thats a better response than those who have pointed at the regs and stated, 'it has to achieve bla bla bla, therefore it shall'
These are the types who have never flown larger cabin twins and mainly jaunt our flying schools with three (and sometimes four) stripes on their shoulders.
Yeah A Duchess or Seneca/Seminole usually do pretty well on one engine in multi engine training, hell I've even done 60 AOB turns in a Duchess towards the dead engine, and it worked. These training types are a far cry from your average commercial twin.
As for your sentiments regarding updating equipment morno, I suspect there are more factors present than meets the eye.
Imagine all the money tied up with these old twins which are worth a fair bit of money. Most operators would go broke, or the finance companies would be heavily stung if they were legislated against over night.
The best option as I stated earlier would be higher rates of depreciation and tax benefits using new equipment. A regulator who believes in GA would also be a good start!
These are the types who have never flown larger cabin twins and mainly jaunt our flying schools with three (and sometimes four) stripes on their shoulders.
Yeah A Duchess or Seneca/Seminole usually do pretty well on one engine in multi engine training, hell I've even done 60 AOB turns in a Duchess towards the dead engine, and it worked. These training types are a far cry from your average commercial twin.
As for your sentiments regarding updating equipment morno, I suspect there are more factors present than meets the eye.
Imagine all the money tied up with these old twins which are worth a fair bit of money. Most operators would go broke, or the finance companies would be heavily stung if they were legislated against over night.
The best option as I stated earlier would be higher rates of depreciation and tax benefits using new equipment. A regulator who believes in GA would also be a good start!
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dehavillandpilot
Heron nothing to do with Airtex !!!! That is the biggest porkie that I have heard this year.
You say that Heron decides which operator to use, what rubbish.
Die Fuhrer decides that, you moron.
Airtex catering, Airtex telephones, Airtex financing, Airtex car parking, Airtex departure terminal, etc, etc. .
Airtex aircraft 100% of the time until the troubles.
Wonder under what circumstances DS inherited/bought the business from the original owner?
The CASA policy document in relation to Closed Charter and Interposed Entities is interesting reading.
You say that Heron decides which operator to use, what rubbish.
Die Fuhrer decides that, you moron.
Airtex catering, Airtex telephones, Airtex financing, Airtex car parking, Airtex departure terminal, etc, etc. .
Airtex aircraft 100% of the time until the troubles.
Wonder under what circumstances DS inherited/bought the business from the original owner?
The CASA policy document in relation to Closed Charter and Interposed Entities is interesting reading.
Hey Kharon,
Any chance of a few photos..??
Just curious is all....
p.s. A 'rhetorical' question......if it was 'banging away' from the T/O roll,
I wonder why he passed over the long straight road..??
(Yeah...I KNOW he's busy...)
Like I said, just curious......
Any chance of a few photos..??
Just curious is all....
p.s. A 'rhetorical' question......if it was 'banging away' from the T/O roll,
I wonder why he passed over the long straight road..??
(Yeah...I KNOW he's busy...)
Like I said, just curious......
Well morno, thats a better response than those who have pointed at the regs and stated, 'it has to achieve bla bla bla, therefore it shall'
These are the types who have never flown larger cabin twins and mainly jaunt our flying schools with three (and sometimes four) stripes on their shoulders.
These are the types who have never flown larger cabin twins and mainly jaunt our flying schools with three (and sometimes four) stripes on their shoulders.
Simon Pieman
Wonder under what circumstances DS inherited/bought the business from the original owner?
He asked for some quotes on various runs but from what I can tell, he's still the same old JI from 10 years ago when I last did work for him
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 17th Nov 2010 at 18:30. Reason: clarify writer's understanding of the ownership of Heron "Airlines"
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Horatio L
Hi I don't know who Simon P is but he/she is spot on the money - JI is the manager only - I guess you could ask DS or any of the ops people there. Yeah - JI is still the same as he was 10 years ago. You need large grains of salt!
I think I might have been there when DS took over Heron.
Soooooo............
I think I might have been there when DS took over Heron.
Soooooo............
All I can say is poor old MKK
I have spent well over 100 hours in the old girl flying Heron tours all over Oz, never missed a beat. Leaked water everywhere in heavy cloud, door seal screamed for mercy, crew door popped open on nearly every takeoff but got me to my next port every time.(Maybe it was my expert piloting) Anyways I will miss the old girl. I just hope someone will salvage her in one piece and give her a decent burial.
As for the rest of you experts, Airtex, Avtex, Wingaway, Heron Airlines all owned by the same person. The very same person whom has been around longer than any of you experts can remember and has given many of us the chance to succeed in our dreams of becoming a professional pilot. Ex Airtex pilots have been recognised all over the country and fly for major airlines today and proud of their achivements.
I do not worship DS, he is a tough man always been hard to put up with but he always been a teacher of discipline like most men of his background. So before you blame him for these unfortunate events, do your research and get your facts straight.
Over and out.
I have spent well over 100 hours in the old girl flying Heron tours all over Oz, never missed a beat. Leaked water everywhere in heavy cloud, door seal screamed for mercy, crew door popped open on nearly every takeoff but got me to my next port every time.(Maybe it was my expert piloting) Anyways I will miss the old girl. I just hope someone will salvage her in one piece and give her a decent burial.
As for the rest of you experts, Airtex, Avtex, Wingaway, Heron Airlines all owned by the same person. The very same person whom has been around longer than any of you experts can remember and has given many of us the chance to succeed in our dreams of becoming a professional pilot. Ex Airtex pilots have been recognised all over the country and fly for major airlines today and proud of their achivements.
I do not worship DS, he is a tough man always been hard to put up with but he always been a teacher of discipline like most men of his background. So before you blame him for these unfortunate events, do your research and get your facts straight.
Over and out.