Cockpit Door Locks And Other Security?
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2002
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From: Brisbane
Cockpit Door Locks And Other Security?
Excuse me IF this is posted elsewhere, I just did a long search and could not see anything.
Just been watching the news, had a story about Qantas Link aircraft that the ALAEA are saying have cockpit door locks that can be opened by anyone with even their rolled up boarding pass.
NOT in any way criticising Qantas, what I would like to know applies to ANY Aussie Operator.
I retired before all these (secure/real) cockpit door locks etc were introduced, and I am just curious to know IF any of these devices are not working as they should, is that an airworthy problem?
What I mean is (in Australia) does a defect in any of these things, like the cockpit door locks, mean that an LAME can (should even) refuse to release the aircraft to service?
And also the Flight Crew, can they refuse to accept the aircraft?
Just been watching the news, had a story about Qantas Link aircraft that the ALAEA are saying have cockpit door locks that can be opened by anyone with even their rolled up boarding pass.
NOT in any way criticising Qantas, what I would like to know applies to ANY Aussie Operator.
I retired before all these (secure/real) cockpit door locks etc were introduced, and I am just curious to know IF any of these devices are not working as they should, is that an airworthy problem?
What I mean is (in Australia) does a defect in any of these things, like the cockpit door locks, mean that an LAME can (should even) refuse to release the aircraft to service?
And also the Flight Crew, can they refuse to accept the aircraft?
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,406
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From: Brisbane
Okay, thank you, as I said NO sinister reason for wanting to know, just we didn't have those secure doors for the almost 40 years I was in the Industry.
Could you, or someone else, just please provide a little more detail?
I get that you don't go, but does a U/S cockpit door lock nowadays make the aircraft unserviceable/not airworthy, OR is a different law/regulation, OR just Company policy??
Thank you..................
Could you, or someone else, just please provide a little more detail?
I get that you don't go, but does a U/S cockpit door lock nowadays make the aircraft unserviceable/not airworthy, OR is a different law/regulation, OR just Company policy??
Thank you..................
Joined: Jul 2008
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From: Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.
The MEL for cockpit door security allows certain defects.None from memory allows an aircraft to fly without it being able to lock.
I am not rated on any Link aircraft so cannot comment on their doors.
I am not rated on any Link aircraft so cannot comment on their doors.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,406
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From: Brisbane
Thank you. 
I am not interested in their aircraft specifically, actually I would be interested in say B737/A320 and bigger.
So from what you said the locked/secure cockpit door is now embedded into the Maintenance and Flight Manuals and it is a NO GO item if it is U/S.
I am not interested in their aircraft specifically, actually I would be interested in say B737/A320 and bigger.
So from what you said the locked/secure cockpit door is now embedded into the Maintenance and Flight Manuals and it is a NO GO item if it is U/S.
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: La Belle Province
From the FAA B737 MMEl as posted on TCCA website : Item 52-8
So the only MMEL relief is when something else is there as a lock or there are no pax. Seems sensible enough.
The B777 MMEL on the same site includes various lock systems which are 25.795 compliant and all have much the same kind of conditions - see the ATA52 section.
Flight Deck Door Lock system (Not 14 CFR 25.795 Compliant)
C 1 0 (M) May be inoperative provided:
a) Door lock solenoid is deactivated in locked
position, and
b) Door is verified to lock and unlock manually.
C 1 0 May be inoperative provided supplemental flight deck
door security device is installed and operates
normally.
D 1 0 May be inoperative provided all-cargo operations are
being conducted.
C 1 0 (M) May be inoperative provided:
a) Door lock solenoid is deactivated in locked
position, and
b) Door is verified to lock and unlock manually.
C 1 0 May be inoperative provided supplemental flight deck
door security device is installed and operates
normally.
D 1 0 May be inoperative provided all-cargo operations are
being conducted.
The B777 MMEL on the same site includes various lock systems which are 25.795 compliant and all have much the same kind of conditions - see the ATA52 section.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2002
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From: Brisbane
Okay, again thank you, however I purposely asked about Aussie aircraft.
Apart from the fact that the rules could be different in the USA, after working out of JFK NY I do NOT have much time for what the FAA say.
Apart from the fact that the rules could be different in the USA, after working out of JFK NY I do NOT have much time for what the FAA say.
Bottums Up
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 3,440
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From: dunnunda
Airsupport, Aussie registered 717 MEL allows dispatch, for 10 days if memory serves, with various parts of the Flt Deck door locking mechanism (normally controlled electronically) u/s. BUT the door must be lockable in flight.
Ahh for the good ole open door policy of days of yore.
Ahh for the good ole open door policy of days of yore.
Last edited by Capt Claret; 27th October 2010 at 06:42. Reason: Phat phingers
Joined: Mar 2005
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From: shivering in the cold dark shadow of my own magnificence.
The Problem with cockpit door locks.
The biggest problem with cockpit door locks is that they exclusively lock from the cockpit side. Thus there is nothing to protect the travelling public from the Pilots going crazy mid-flight and shooting everyone in the cabin. Whilst it is true that some of this risk has been mitigated by the mandatory security screening of Pilots, the only way to eliminate this risk entirely is to 'seal' the pilots in by having door locks only on the cabin side.
I propose that we send in a submission to a senator about this blatent security oversight.
joe crazyhorse.
I propose that we send in a submission to a senator about this blatent security oversight.
joe crazyhorse.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2002
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From: Brisbane
Ahh for the good ole open door policy of days od yore.
Also I feel so sorry for kids today, back in 70s and 80s when our kids were young, every flight we did, and there were heaps, the kids always got to go up to the cockpit for a visit, something our grandkids now will never get to experience.
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: Up The 116E, Stbd Turn at 32S...:-)
Very Troo Mr Airsupport.
My family moved to Cairns when I was a kid and we used to fly down to SY every couple of years for Christmas. ALL day in the air then - DC-3 and chg to DC-4 at BN. Many a visit 'up front' then - its wot got me started.....
My family moved to Cairns when I was a kid and we used to fly down to SY every couple of years for Christmas. ALL day in the air then - DC-3 and chg to DC-4 at BN. Many a visit 'up front' then - its wot got me started.....
Joined: Oct 2009
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From: Alabama, then Wyoming, then Idaho and now staying with Kharon on Styx houseboat
I know a Ginger Beer who can open Dash 8 locks by elbowing them really hard in the right spot, pops the locking mechanism,seen it myself.
As for boarding passes and ice cream sticks opening the doors, it is possible. I will try it on the late shift, plenty of time spare. However for the sake of OHS safety I would recomend that all paddle pop sticks be licked thoroughly clean, gloves be worn as well as a high vis vest, knee's bent and a second person used to ensure no excessive limb movements occur. Better to err on the side of safety don't you think ??
As for boarding passes and ice cream sticks opening the doors, it is possible. I will try it on the late shift, plenty of time spare. However for the sake of OHS safety I would recomend that all paddle pop sticks be licked thoroughly clean, gloves be worn as well as a high vis vest, knee's bent and a second person used to ensure no excessive limb movements occur. Better to err on the side of safety don't you think ??
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: S.H.
gobbledock,
Geez mate...........you forgot the safety glasses AND the hearing protection for the both of you when doing the old 'how to open the cockpit door with the paddle-pop stick or a rolled-up boarding pass' trick. Don't you know that you could get seriously hurt doing that sort of stuff without all of the right PPE.
Geez mate...........you forgot the safety glasses AND the hearing protection for the both of you when doing the old 'how to open the cockpit door with the paddle-pop stick or a rolled-up boarding pass' trick. Don't you know that you could get seriously hurt doing that sort of stuff without all of the right PPE.
Last edited by chainsaw; 27th October 2010 at 09:27.
Joined: May 2005
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From: Orstraylia
It gets better
Grape vine says that the company took the LAME's involved to FWA citing unprotected industrial action for snagging quite a few aircraft with the same problem.
Increduously the commisioner agreed, never mind the LAME's responsibilities and duty of care according to the CASA regs!
Once the matter became public the forever supportive company stood the LAME's down.
Where is the ATSB and CASA when this sort of crap is going on?
Increduously the commisioner agreed, never mind the LAME's responsibilities and duty of care according to the CASA regs!
Once the matter became public the forever supportive company stood the LAME's down.
Where is the ATSB and CASA when this sort of crap is going on?
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,437
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From: Alabama, then Wyoming, then Idaho and now staying with Kharon on Styx houseboat
Break and Enter
Sorry Chainsaw !
I also forgot I need to have had an induction, the glasses as you mentioned, hard hat, plenty of training, knowledge in hazard reporting procedures and location of fire extinguishers, emergency contact numbers and First Aid training !
Looks like it is back to the classroom for me.....
I also forgot I need to have had an induction, the glasses as you mentioned, hard hat, plenty of training, knowledge in hazard reporting procedures and location of fire extinguishers, emergency contact numbers and First Aid training !
Looks like it is back to the classroom for me.....
Dunnunda Fleet Manager
Joined: Jan 1996
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From: Utopia
The SKY News report indicated DHC-8-400 cockpit doors can be opened with a paddle pop stick or rolled up Boarding Card.
Whilst the news article was not specific it tended to indicate the door locks have a design fault, rather than mechanical defect.
Whilst the news article was not specific it tended to indicate the door locks have a design fault, rather than mechanical defect.
