PT-6A Holding the prop on start up?
Besides, PT6 drivers have no concept of hot starts, come to Garret land and see the real thing.
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Why is it littlely turbine engines start hot?
Are you giving it too much choke? Is the ring gear worn and slipping? Maybe your throttle bashing? Sounds like it's your fault anyway Tinny. 
Last edited by Super Cecil; 24th Oct 2010 at 21:29. Reason: Brainfart
Silly Old Git
Hullo boss? Yeh I'm in Oodnapuckimwoopwoop and the battery is below voltage limits.Some blackfellas here reckon for a carton they can spin the prop fast enough to start, shall I try that?"
God ya miss GA doncha?
God ya miss GA doncha?
Yeh, cos the wind never swings over night...
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Originally Posted by MakeItHappenCaptain
Do flight manuals prohibit pushing the aircraft around?
Getting to the airport at oh-dark-thirty of a morning to find your aircraft pointing the wrong way given the prevailing conditions for an "approved" engine-start... "pushing" the (let's say minimum 3 tonne) aircraft around (by hand, in the absence of an approved tug) on your own, unassisted, may be a bit of a big ask... don'cha think???
I can think of any number of similar scenarios that my result in less-than-ideal engine-start conditions -but probably best we just pause there and really think about what we're typing...
don'cha think???
pushing" the (let's say minimum 3 tonne) aircraft around (by hand, in the absence of an approved tug) on your own, unassisted,
Fair enough to say I've never had to start a Caravan with a tailwind. Two of us were always enough to move it if required (and not on a sealed surface either).
Know of one company that even advises getting the pax to give a shove if so required. (All adds to the experience I suppose.) Never heard of holding the prop as a technique though. Any engineers want to comment on this?
Yup, Jober. I'm sure everyone can come up with a scenario to justify themselves. (Not saying I'm innocent either.
)
What do you mean "we", Kemhosahbe?
Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 25th Oct 2010 at 09:35.
Two pilots in a caravan, hmmmm, that explains a lot....
Yep, real professional getting the pax to pull the aircraft around, kinda fits with the unsealed strip stereotype though.
Even in a 15 knot tailwind, a caravan peak temp might be 20-30 degrees hotter. Big FCUKING DEAL! Especially when it peaks at 800 and the company limit is 900. IF you're running around with a battery on the way out this may change things however...
j3
Yep, real professional getting the pax to pull the aircraft around, kinda fits with the unsealed strip stereotype though.
Even in a 15 knot tailwind, a caravan peak temp might be 20-30 degrees hotter. Big FCUKING DEAL! Especially when it peaks at 800 and the company limit is 900. IF you're running around with a battery on the way out this may change things however...
j3
Didn't say it was my company, dude.
How about using common sense rather than cowboy stunts to get around a situation?
Don't see why it's so f
cking hard if you have got someone who can hold a prop, both of you can't at least turn the a/c side on to the wind.
Wouldn't want to see the pilot/princess doing any physical work now, would we?
How about using common sense rather than cowboy stunts to get around a situation?
Don't see why it's so f
cking hard if you have got someone who can hold a prop, both of you can't at least turn the a/c side on to the wind. Wouldn't want to see the pilot/princess doing any physical work now, would we?
Cowboy stunts? What, a cowboy stunt is to load the pax and accept the downwind vs get them to push your aircraft around? Yeh, way to instill confidence... I'll fly with you anyday Mav, once I've helped clutch start your aircraft...cos that's what they're thinking...
I don't get anyone to hold props, never been in a harsh enough environment like the arctic. Your original statement was to the effect that you should face it into wind as it is 'basic PT6'A' stuff. I have had it several times where overnight the wind has swung and I have been by myself. What then genius? Then you start it with a tailwind, and if you have never been in this situation, you musn't be a very experienced 'big flashy turbine driva'. You must be one of those second career guys judging by your age.
Actually, lets see the pilot push/pull the 3 tonne machine around, damage his back and have to spend the night in the middle of nowhere. Been there, tried that. But I forgot, you fly those realy complicated 2 crew caravans... so you'd have a spare pilot. Do you have a pretend gear lever so the 'F/O' can raise it once you get positive rate? How do your transition checks read? How do you two handle the speed of joining the circuit at that Vne of 175kts? Does the 'Captain' get to wear 4 bars and braid around the shoulder?
j3
How about using common sense rather than cowboy stunts to get around a situation?
Wouldn't want to see the pilot/princess doing any physical work now, would we?
j3
Last edited by j3pipercub; 25th Oct 2010 at 10:10.
HappenCaptain,
With around 1,500hrs of PT6 time (both large and mid sized PT6's), I've never noticed much of a difference in temperature during the start, when starting with a tail wind. Sure, avoid it where possible, but as j3 has alluded to, it's not always possible.
Pushing my 5 tonne King Air around just to face into wind, is asking a bit much, when it'll make bugger all difference in the start. Let alone if you can even budge it!
morno
With around 1,500hrs of PT6 time (both large and mid sized PT6's), I've never noticed much of a difference in temperature during the start, when starting with a tail wind. Sure, avoid it where possible, but as j3 has alluded to, it's not always possible.
Pushing my 5 tonne King Air around just to face into wind, is asking a bit much, when it'll make bugger all difference in the start. Let alone if you can even budge it!
morno
Our PT6 powered Bell 212's needed a hefty engineer to hold the blades on start up when we had strong/gusty winds in the North Sea. Otherwise, blade sailing could happen before Nr increased such that we had some control of the main rotor and avoid hitting the tail boom with an errant blade.
The chunkiest engineer usually managed 20-30% torque before he had to let go
The chunkiest engineer usually managed 20-30% torque before he had to let go
J3, Deaf, dumb or both?
Again, didn't say it was my company, dude.
My point was if you have someone who can hold a prop, you should be able to push the aircraft. Obviously if you are by yourself, and yes, as morno points out, with 5 tonne, different story, but this isn't the scenario. If you've already done your back in by 27, maybe you should spend some more time in the gym?
Also didn't say it was a two pilot operation, but you probably won't hear that either. I was never shy about helping other pilots get underway.
Amusing to see how the insults come out when you run out of logical arguments. Got any idea how many hours go with that age, junior?
Again, didn't say it was my company, dude.
My point was if you have someone who can hold a prop, you should be able to push the aircraft. Obviously if you are by yourself, and yes, as morno points out, with 5 tonne, different story, but this isn't the scenario. If you've already done your back in by 27, maybe you should spend some more time in the gym?
Also didn't say it was a two pilot operation, but you probably won't hear that either. I was never shy about helping other pilots get underway.
Amusing to see how the insults come out when you run out of logical arguments. Got any idea how many hours go with that age, junior?
Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 25th Oct 2010 at 11:21.
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Not sure about the wisdom or otherwise of holding the prop by hand (have seen the Huey start and the rotor spins up a bit slower than a prop!) but given that PT6's are used in a few different helos with rotor brakes I see no reason why the engine is not capable of being safely run with the prop stopped.
MIHC,
I assumed from these words...
...that it was a two crew operation, cos I have never had a flight attendant or a gate agent that would help me pull an aircraft.
Well with comments like...
and others to the effect that you should never start a PT6 in a tailwind show that however many hours you do have, you either haven't learnt much from them or don't have much turbine time there old man.
You wouldn't know mate, you've never pulled the aircraft around by yourself have you...
j3
I assumed from these words...
Fair enough to say I've never had to start a Caravan with a tailwind. Two of us were always enough to move it if required (and not on a sealed surface either).
Amusing to see how the insults come out when you run out of logical arguments. Got any idea how many hours go with that age, junior?
Do flight manuals prohibit pushing the aircraft around?
If you've already done your back in by 27, maybe you should spend some more time in the gym?
j3
MakeItHappenCaptain..
I've gotta agree with J3 on this one.. I currently fly B412's (PT6 donks in the ol girl), and it's not possible to turn the aircraft around into wind when the aircraft is on skids (no wheels, and the ground handling wheels live in the hangar).. It's actually quite common to be starting with a tailwind, obviously you would avoid it if you could.
The start is a little warmer, but just a matter of keeping your eye on it (as you would with any normal start anyway).
I've gotta agree with J3 on this one.. I currently fly B412's (PT6 donks in the ol girl), and it's not possible to turn the aircraft around into wind when the aircraft is on skids (no wheels, and the ground handling wheels live in the hangar).. It's actually quite common to be starting with a tailwind, obviously you would avoid it if you could.
The start is a little warmer, but just a matter of keeping your eye on it (as you would with any normal start anyway).
Ceasefire, J3.
I can understand how easy it is to make assumptions based on the limited info that is posted here sometimes, I've been guilty myself. The way some people snipe at genuine suggestions makes it easy to fly off the handle and again, been there done that.
My statement was not that it's prohibited to start with a tailwind, just preferable that it's done into wind and with two people around, a caravan isn't that hard to push. Yes, I have done it on many occasions so I'm not being hypocritical. I never had the inclination to see if the instructor who endorsed me was wrong.
Don't think a Kingair or PC12 would have as much drama (smaller exhaust area and yes, a bit harder to move) but (disclaimer) this could just be my assumption.
I can understand how easy it is to make assumptions based on the limited info that is posted here sometimes, I've been guilty myself. The way some people snipe at genuine suggestions makes it easy to fly off the handle and again, been there done that.
My statement was not that it's prohibited to start with a tailwind, just preferable that it's done into wind and with two people around, a caravan isn't that hard to push. Yes, I have done it on many occasions so I'm not being hypocritical. I never had the inclination to see if the instructor who endorsed me was wrong.
Don't think a Kingair or PC12 would have as much drama (smaller exhaust area and yes, a bit harder to move) but (disclaimer) this could just be my assumption.