Nvfr Lsalt
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Nvfr Lsalt
Hi,
I'm doing a NVFR rating at the moment, I've actually just changed flight schools. My instructor in Bankstown told me that it was legal to descend to the MSA published on a DAP approach plate when within 25nm or 10nm (as the case may be) of the destination airport. Is this correct? I have been doing a bit of reading in the AIP:
It seems that if a LSALT is published in the AIP aeronautical charts, then that LSALT may be used for flight (after applying the appropriate navigational tolerances). Are the DAP charts considered aeronautical charts in this regard?
J
I'm doing a NVFR rating at the moment, I've actually just changed flight schools. My instructor in Bankstown told me that it was legal to descend to the MSA published on a DAP approach plate when within 25nm or 10nm (as the case may be) of the destination airport. Is this correct? I have been doing a bit of reading in the AIP:
It seems that if a LSALT is published in the AIP aeronautical charts, then that LSALT may be used for flight (after applying the appropriate navigational tolerances). Are the DAP charts considered aeronautical charts in this regard?
J
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blacklable, enroute gps is not the only way to determine that you are within 25/10nm.
What about DME?
Visual fix? Afterall it is a VFR flight.
How do you determine that you are within 3nm so that you can 'normally' descend from your LSALT?? = visually!
Chances are that a lot of people conducting NVFR do not have instrument ratings, and subsequently do not have nor understand the published MSAs on approach charts.
However, MSA is a surveyed, published and legitimate height. As long as you know you are within the appropriate MSA sector or distance, I for one would say use it. Better than potentially stuffing up your LSALT calculation.
Similar to using published track's LSALTs instead of your calculated one, provided you stay within the appropriate aid tolerances.
What about DME?
Visual fix? Afterall it is a VFR flight.
How do you determine that you are within 3nm so that you can 'normally' descend from your LSALT?? = visually!
Chances are that a lot of people conducting NVFR do not have instrument ratings, and subsequently do not have nor understand the published MSAs on approach charts.
However, MSA is a surveyed, published and legitimate height. As long as you know you are within the appropriate MSA sector or distance, I for one would say use it. Better than potentially stuffing up your LSALT calculation.
Similar to using published track's LSALTs instead of your calculated one, provided you stay within the appropriate aid tolerances.
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My instructor in Bankstown told me that it was legal to descend to the MSA published on a DAP approach plate when within 25nm or 10nm (as the case may be) of the destination airport. Is this correct?
1. In relation to NVFR flight, if the rules refer only to LSALT (i.e, make no mention of MSA), then you cannot use MSAs. MSAs are not the same thing as LSALTs (despite being practically identical in concept);
2. To use an MSA, you need to have been trained. Do you get this training in the NVFR practical syllabus? If not, then I can't see how you will answer the ATO when he asks this question.
When you live....
I disagee.
NVFR training - even more so than IFR where you can stick to the published routes - requires you to figure out you LSALTS. IIRC, my NVFR training involved using all the methods available of determining LSALT - including dead reckoning and using WACs. Using MSAs as another method of determining the LSALT is not unreasonable as long as you know what it means (no different to interpreting a WAC or other) and can figure out when you're 25 or 10m miles out - including by visual identification (but ideally by GPS - with endorsement of course)
UTR
NVFR training - even more so than IFR where you can stick to the published routes - requires you to figure out you LSALTS. IIRC, my NVFR training involved using all the methods available of determining LSALT - including dead reckoning and using WACs. Using MSAs as another method of determining the LSALT is not unreasonable as long as you know what it means (no different to interpreting a WAC or other) and can figure out when you're 25 or 10m miles out - including by visual identification (but ideally by GPS - with endorsement of course)
UTR
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2. To use an MSA, you need to have been trained.
Maybe it is "implied" if you hold a CIR?
However on a similar kind of thing, my license & logbook both state that I have DGA:- so can I use the GPS to gather distance information for a DME/GPS arrival? I don't have a seperate GPS sticker anywhere, yet it says DGA......
Interpretation... The problem with Australian regulations.
Use all the information that is available to you.
Heck you can draw a new tolerance area on a WAC to work out a new and hopefully lower LSALT once you have confirmed a fix and passed a limiting obstacle. You can even draw a new area for your last 10 or 25 miles if you so wish.
3NM isn't used as a TOPD point, you'll overfly at LSALT, descend and land.
visual fix yes, good i agree but what if you misidentify ?
During NVFR you get trained and qualified to use the aids for tracking. If you have one at your destination, track to it using that using a published route. Stay within tolerances and use that route's published LSALT. Perfectly safe.
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Err NVFR=Night Visual Flight Rules
You wont be using an approach plate to determine 25/10 mile sectors until instrument rating time
Most students I know still have trouble getting a positve fix during the day especially during the early stages of their training let alone at night.
Don't go using the GPS for determining distance below LSALT as it needs to be IFR compliant.
I doubt most flying schools would have their GPS up to date in this regard
Don't go below your LSALT until over the aid. Best positive fix by far.
You wont be using an approach plate to determine 25/10 mile sectors until instrument rating time
Most students I know still have trouble getting a positve fix during the day especially during the early stages of their training let alone at night.
Don't go using the GPS for determining distance below LSALT as it needs to be IFR compliant.
I doubt most flying schools would have their GPS up to date in this regard
Don't go below your LSALT until over the aid. Best positive fix by far.
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Err NVFR=Night Visual Flight Rules
You wont be using an approach plate to determine 25/10 mile sectors until instrument rating time
You wont be using an approach plate to determine 25/10 mile sectors until instrument rating time
Just because you are NVFR does not mean you are excluded from using something like the MSA.
What about a non-instrument pilot using a grid LSALT? Surely that would be considered OK!
Oh hang on, you only get grid figures off an IFR chart....
Like I mentioned before, use all the information available to you. Many ways to skin a cat.
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Don't go using the GPS for determining distance below LSALT as it needs to be IFR compliant.
Night VFR RNAV. Pilots operating under the VFR at night may use GPS for:
(3) deriving distance information for en route navigation, traffic information and ATC seperation.
The flight crew have to hold appropriate qualifications and the GPS receiver must meet the appropriate TSO standard.
Unless you use the published information, LSALT becomes a function position using the GPS anyway...
AIP GEN 3.3 4.11
An aircraft must not be flown at night under the VFR, lower than the published lowest safe altitude...
I suppose it all comes down to whether you consider the MSA as being an indicator of LSALT as it is published on an aeronautical chart.
I agree that it is legal, but the regulations are very subjective!
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Going back to the original question which was someone in the process of gaining a NVFR rating.
We are not talking about an instrument rated pilot flying under the NVFR, we are talking about a possibly low time pilot starting to fly at night.
I'm not saying its not legal, I'm saying I don't think its wise.
As far as the GPS is concerned even for enroute you have to have had a course of training and have your logbook endorsed. AIP GEN 1.5 para 8.5.3.2b
We are not talking about an instrument rated pilot flying under the NVFR, we are talking about a possibly low time pilot starting to fly at night.
I'm not saying its not legal, I'm saying I don't think its wise.
As far as the GPS is concerned even for enroute you have to have had a course of training and have your logbook endorsed. AIP GEN 1.5 para 8.5.3.2b
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... we are talking about a possibly low time pilot starting to fly at night.
Can that "training" be given over a beer at the pub by a mate that has just got his CIR?
I suspect that the majority of posters to this thread are IFR pilots, to whom the understanding and use of MSA is a no-brainer.
An aircraft must not be flown at night under the VFR, lower than the published lowest safe altitude...
I like the way I can fly S/E NVFR using NDBs, and M/E IFR Using just about everything (Still working on my TACAN and radar approaches) and but cant fly M/E NVFR at all. Seems like the regs have gaping holes in them that don't cover everything.
If you can prove that you have passed an en-route obstacle then you can re calculate your lowest safe and descend to it. That being said you would want to be REALLY sure you had passed the obstacle before re calculating. How you do that can only be based on the items you are endorsed on NDB, RNAV, VOR.
Some nights you can visually identify your location fairly easily as all the distracting ground clutter is missing and only the prominent features remain, other nights you will feel like you are flying into a goldfish bowl painted black on the inside with nothing but the glow from the AH for company
, on those nights I strongly recommend hanging around at 8500ft and descending over the top of the airfield 
If you can prove that you have passed an en-route obstacle then you can re calculate your lowest safe and descend to it. That being said you would want to be REALLY sure you had passed the obstacle before re calculating. How you do that can only be based on the items you are endorsed on NDB, RNAV, VOR.
Some nights you can visually identify your location fairly easily as all the distracting ground clutter is missing and only the prominent features remain, other nights you will feel like you are flying into a goldfish bowl painted black on the inside with nothing but the glow from the AH for company
, on those nights I strongly recommend hanging around at 8500ft and descending over the top of the airfield
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rmcdonal, CAO 40.2.1 "Instrument Ratings" has a section on "Flight by night under VFR procedures".
Basically, if you have a grade of instrument rating, that rating allows you to fly that category of aircraft under the NVFR- provided that you meet the relevant experience that it goes on to stipulate. Differs for PVT/AWK and CHTR.
So you may be able to do ME NVFR afterall!
FGD, ok yes I do understand that the original poster is (apparently) not instrument rated. However that aside, the way I interpreted the main question posed in the initial post appeared to be "can you use MSA when NVFR?".
You state "..........lower than the published lowest safe altitude..."
Seeing as though the AIP GEN definition of LSALT = "the lowest altitude which will provide safe terrain clearance at a given place", would you not agree that an MSA is a published safe altitude?
QJB, if in doubt use what you have calculated or the grid. Can't go wrong.
Basically, if you have a grade of instrument rating, that rating allows you to fly that category of aircraft under the NVFR- provided that you meet the relevant experience that it goes on to stipulate. Differs for PVT/AWK and CHTR.
So you may be able to do ME NVFR afterall!
FGD, ok yes I do understand that the original poster is (apparently) not instrument rated. However that aside, the way I interpreted the main question posed in the initial post appeared to be "can you use MSA when NVFR?".
You state "..........lower than the published lowest safe altitude..."
Seeing as though the AIP GEN definition of LSALT = "the lowest altitude which will provide safe terrain clearance at a given place", would you not agree that an MSA is a published safe altitude?
QJB, if in doubt use what you have calculated or the grid. Can't go wrong.
If your not sure, then simply calculate a LSALT with 25 nm or 10 if you like of your destination and use it. If your IFR you would call it a MSA. Big deal over and done with. If you have a problem with drawing a 25nm arc just calculate within 25 nm of your destination on track. That is perfectly legal NVFR.
THe only real difference is that one is published for you one is not. The published one is a good double check. The MSA is often higher than the LSALT.
THe only real difference is that one is published for you one is not. The published one is a good double check. The MSA is often higher than the LSALT.
However on a similar kind of thing, my license & logbook both state that I have DGA
Must be something that came in after I left in 1996.
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He only real difference is that one is published for you one is not. The published one is a good double check. The MSA is often higher than the LSALT.
However this is all getting very academic practically speaking LSALT is all a NVFR will need. If this is still high enough to necessitate circling down, you will more than likely be doing the same off the MSA.
