VA CRFO Interview next month.What to Expect????
GADRIVR
Ummmm, yes. Alternatively, perpetuate the cycle and continue to drive down T&C's so in 15 years some other twonk just like you can make the same argument on here when all the GA guys are still being paid the same money... When VA first started advertising I was a casual earning 28k a year and I didn't apply cos I thought that I was above selling myself that short for a jet job. Obviously there were a lot out there that felt it was an ok price to pay, for both themselves and the industry.
Yah huh, how many of the CZFO's as a percentage are Union members? I would love to see the figures and would be flabergasted if it exceeded 25%. Besides, if you signed a contract/are on an EBA, usually you can't have any additional claims until the expiry of the EBA. So how you going to change things from the 'inside' if you joined right at the beginning of a 4 year EBA?
But you're probably right, lets all sell ourselves for a comparable pittance so we can sit in the back and go to LA evey week. Sorry, I forgot Abu Dhabi next year as well.
This is for you
http://www.gadgettastic.com/images/b...army_knife.jpg
So what happenned to the other half? Still waiting for their interview with VB? Or have they finally created an official career progression from VA to VB?
j3
So whats the alternative kiddies ?.......stay on his SFA paying job, eating less baked beans, trying to raise a family....the questions go on.
Join an airline, accept the present conditions...then change aforesaid conditions with the help of your "fellow professional aviators" and thier various unions.
But you're probably right, lets all sell ourselves for a comparable pittance so we can sit in the back and go to LA evey week. Sorry, I forgot Abu Dhabi next year as well.
This is for you
http://www.gadgettastic.com/images/b...army_knife.jpg
I dunno, about half of the initial intake are all now in the RHS of an Embraer or a 737. They're doing alright.
j3
Ah, GADRIVR 
I elected not to apply for any of the pathetic airline exploitation schemes, stayed in GA and ended up with a decent paying job because I did exactly the opposite of what you said and refused to sell out.
So yes, there are alternatives
Oh and you spelled 'their' incorrectly. TAKE THAT.
However, noble stands aside, I think we as a group are fighting an ultimately futile battle against the reality of market forces. The simple truth is there are more pilots than pilot jobs, hence depression in our value. We can try to artificially drive up the wage through consolidated action and various other means, however ultimately the market always wins.
Of course that isn't going to stop me always pursuing the best return on my training investment I can.
I elected not to apply for any of the pathetic airline exploitation schemes, stayed in GA and ended up with a decent paying job because I did exactly the opposite of what you said and refused to sell out.
So yes, there are alternatives
Oh and you spelled 'their' incorrectly. TAKE THAT.
However, noble stands aside, I think we as a group are fighting an ultimately futile battle against the reality of market forces. The simple truth is there are more pilots than pilot jobs, hence depression in our value. We can try to artificially drive up the wage through consolidated action and various other means, however ultimately the market always wins.
Of course that isn't going to stop me always pursuing the best return on my training investment I can.
If there was "progression" either in VA or across to VB, then I would be the first one to say, "Go for it". As far as I know there is no progression. Those pilots that are now sitting in the RHS of a 737 or an Embraer had to first resign from their job (wonderful), and then apply to what is essentially another airline. Can anyone tell me where the hell you can draw any sort of conclusion to a link!
If those pilots sitting in the RHS of the above mentioned VB jets had applied or persisted with VB in the first place, then many of them would be sitting in the LHS by now!
And don't tell me about "unspoken agreements" or quotas for qualified VA drivers. If it's not in writing, then it's purely at the "governor's pleasure". My guess is a token few to keep the desperate wannabes coming through the door. Next pineapple please!
If those pilots sitting in the RHS of the above mentioned VB jets had applied or persisted with VB in the first place, then many of them would be sitting in the LHS by now!
And don't tell me about "unspoken agreements" or quotas for qualified VA drivers. If it's not in writing, then it's purely at the "governor's pleasure". My guess is a token few to keep the desperate wannabes coming through the door. Next pineapple please!
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So J3...... a twonk therefore must wait his turn...which may or may not come along...try to raise a family, pay the bills and not get somewhere in life as one must pay the price as it were. The only cycle that is being perpetuated my dribbling friend is one of never getting there in the first place.
I'll let you in on some info Baldrick. Back in the days when you were crapping in your nappies, a big thing called a pilots strike happened.It would be fair to say that the employment scene, as a pilot in Australia changed from that time onwards.
The reality is that the industry has for all intents and purposes been deregulated. That means that the employers can do what the hell they want within legal reason.
Your answer to that is to do nothing....literally. Just sit there, wait for a turn that may or may not come along, throw rocks at others, look off into the distance in a noble fashion and hiss "splitters" occasionally.
Sorry mate......that strategy does not work. I know...I tried it!!!
Heres an alternative.
Join the airline of choice, join the appropriate union and change the terms and conditions. That is the only choice we have.
Markets have little to do with your Ts & Cs apart from apply some financial pressure to the management of that particular entity to cut costs, which must be balanced by unified intelligent well thought out industrial relations strategy from our side. Strikes don't work, splitting doesn't work and certainly "waiting your turn" only makes the problems we are facing worse as we move on in time.
So there you have it. There are people out there in our industry who have different circumstances compared to ourselves to deal with. You cannot abuse them when they make a decision that is best for their families. What you can do is get together with your compatriots and do something positive. Again...join the union....make a decision...change the T&Cs.
There is no other choice ultimately when you think about it. These airlines are going to keep popping up whether you like it or not J3....so stop bitching like a spoilt Gen Y brat, get a change of attitude and do something meaningful and positive whilst attempting to accept reality.
And just for the record...I've taken the same path as Das Uber, made the same decisions as Das Uber and stayed in GA. I can live with that however trouble is it doesn't pay well......but that that is changing and not through abusing my fellow aviators, sitting on a fence, or indeed whining about some of the scumbag employers.
Rather I made the choice to do something through my own actions and decisions to better myself, my workplace, positively enhance my workplace and ultimately the industry I've "chosen" to stay in.
I've met basically two kinds of aircrew over the last twenty years. The majority are intelligent, balanced individuals who would be a credit to any professional organisation. Nothing is too much trouble, they believe in give and take and as a rule want what is best for their industry and the people involved at all levels within it.
The other kind suffice to say would be better off locked up with Bubba with the only decision they need to make is deciding whether they should be the Mama or the Papa for the evening (and we all know what happens there right ?)
I'd strongly suggest J3 that you make a decision as to which group you choose to belong to. Seems you're possibly edging towards having to make a choice about wardrobe at this point....TWONK!
Das Uber......as usual a well thought out post which is grammatically correct and gentle in it's intent. Good show.
Pity about the contradictions in logic machine gun boy!!!
I'll let you in on some info Baldrick. Back in the days when you were crapping in your nappies, a big thing called a pilots strike happened.It would be fair to say that the employment scene, as a pilot in Australia changed from that time onwards.
The reality is that the industry has for all intents and purposes been deregulated. That means that the employers can do what the hell they want within legal reason.
Your answer to that is to do nothing....literally. Just sit there, wait for a turn that may or may not come along, throw rocks at others, look off into the distance in a noble fashion and hiss "splitters" occasionally.
Sorry mate......that strategy does not work. I know...I tried it!!!
Heres an alternative.
Join the airline of choice, join the appropriate union and change the terms and conditions. That is the only choice we have.
Markets have little to do with your Ts & Cs apart from apply some financial pressure to the management of that particular entity to cut costs, which must be balanced by unified intelligent well thought out industrial relations strategy from our side. Strikes don't work, splitting doesn't work and certainly "waiting your turn" only makes the problems we are facing worse as we move on in time.
So there you have it. There are people out there in our industry who have different circumstances compared to ourselves to deal with. You cannot abuse them when they make a decision that is best for their families. What you can do is get together with your compatriots and do something positive. Again...join the union....make a decision...change the T&Cs.
There is no other choice ultimately when you think about it. These airlines are going to keep popping up whether you like it or not J3....so stop bitching like a spoilt Gen Y brat, get a change of attitude and do something meaningful and positive whilst attempting to accept reality.
And just for the record...I've taken the same path as Das Uber, made the same decisions as Das Uber and stayed in GA. I can live with that however trouble is it doesn't pay well......but that that is changing and not through abusing my fellow aviators, sitting on a fence, or indeed whining about some of the scumbag employers.
Rather I made the choice to do something through my own actions and decisions to better myself, my workplace, positively enhance my workplace and ultimately the industry I've "chosen" to stay in.
I've met basically two kinds of aircrew over the last twenty years. The majority are intelligent, balanced individuals who would be a credit to any professional organisation. Nothing is too much trouble, they believe in give and take and as a rule want what is best for their industry and the people involved at all levels within it.
The other kind suffice to say would be better off locked up with Bubba with the only decision they need to make is deciding whether they should be the Mama or the Papa for the evening (and we all know what happens there right ?)
I'd strongly suggest J3 that you make a decision as to which group you choose to belong to. Seems you're possibly edging towards having to make a choice about wardrobe at this point....TWONK!
Das Uber......as usual a well thought out post which is grammatically correct and gentle in it's intent. Good show.
Pity about the contradictions in logic machine gun boy!!!
Last edited by GADRIVR; 3rd Oct 2010 at 02:05.
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I love reading this stuff because you are all so wrong.....
I don't know where the hell you all get your information from.... resigning ?? Come on!!! Seriously!!!... NO! As if you would join with NO progression!!!! Of course there is progression!!
I don't know where the hell you all get your information from.... resigning ?? Come on!!! Seriously!!!... NO! As if you would join with NO progression!!!! Of course there is progression!!
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I am a big believer in letting market forces take their path... but I think it is time CASA legislate min experience for RPT operations >5700 kg.
You can argue all day about how many hours is enough. It would just be nice to have a goal of say 1500 hours or ATPL.
You can argue all day about how many hours is enough. It would just be nice to have a goal of say 1500 hours or ATPL.
JetX,
Can you confirm that there is now guaranteed progression across from VA into the RHS with VB/PB? If so that is a pretty interesting change. When the job was first advertised I distinctly remember a phrase along the lines of 'Career Progression will be very limited'. If there is a progression, it is awesome for the guys who are in there.
GADRIVR,
Where to begin,
Firstly,
Ah the old, I'm older therefore wiser thing, thanks Blackadder. I see you also dropped in the Gen Y gem too, I'll get to that later. You whinge and whine about GA being stuffed and not being able to raise a family on the wages. Well, it was your choice to have a family whilst in GA, or join GA when you had a family. Either way. A fairly selfish thing to do, seeing as you seem to think the industry is shagged. It never used to be.
For the record, during the pilot's strike, I wasn't crapping my nappies, I was wetting the bed. I do have a little more insight into the pilots strike than most my age, there is a reason I have lived in 17 different places in my life.
So does this mean you've crossed to the dark side? No, you don't just sit there and do nothing, nor do you feel hard done by if you never make it to the jet, but don't sell yourself. I don't throw rocks or get on a high horse like you sir, I simply will not follow the hoardes who are crawling over eachother to go to a LCC to T & C's that are well below industry standards. I didn't do it when I was on the bread line and I will not do it now. Maybe there is a reason you never got past the Psych + Skills...
Now, this Gen Y thing. I do not seek instant gratification. If I did, I would have applied to VA 3 years ago, I would hopefully be flying the shiny jet (read sitting in the back). Therefore I disagree that I fit the category of Gen Y, you useless old wannabe has-been (Not nice when you're pigeon holed hey?). And not all LCC are created equal, but you should know that right?
And of course you think you fit into that category hey... But just for the record, I've met several different types of aircrew in my time. I think you should look at the unionpilot website mate, you strike me as a pissant.
Geez, I thought it was a secret about what I did to pay for my flying lessons...
j3
Can you confirm that there is now guaranteed progression across from VA into the RHS with VB/PB? If so that is a pretty interesting change. When the job was first advertised I distinctly remember a phrase along the lines of 'Career Progression will be very limited'. If there is a progression, it is awesome for the guys who are in there
.GADRIVR,
Where to begin,
Firstly,
So J3...... a twonk therefore must wait his turn...which may or may not come along...try to raise a family, pay the bills and not get somewhere in life as one must pay the price as it were. The only cycle that is being perpetuated my dribbling friend is one of never getting there in the first place.
I'll let you in on some info Baldrick. Back in the days when you were crapping in your nappies, a big thing called a pilots strike happened.It would be fair to say that the employment scene, as a pilot in Australia changed from that time onwards.
I'll let you in on some info Baldrick. Back in the days when you were crapping in your nappies, a big thing called a pilots strike happened.It would be fair to say that the employment scene, as a pilot in Australia changed from that time onwards.
For the record, during the pilot's strike, I wasn't crapping my nappies, I was wetting the bed. I do have a little more insight into the pilots strike than most my age, there is a reason I have lived in 17 different places in my life.
The reality is that the industry has for all intents and purposes been deregulated. That means that the employers can do what the hell they want within legal reason.
Your answer to that is to do nothing....literally. Just sit there, wait for a turn that may or may not come along, throw rocks at others, look off into the distance in a noble fashion and hiss "splitters" occasionally.
Sorry mate......that strategy does not work. I know...I tried it!!!
Your answer to that is to do nothing....literally. Just sit there, wait for a turn that may or may not come along, throw rocks at others, look off into the distance in a noble fashion and hiss "splitters" occasionally.
Sorry mate......that strategy does not work. I know...I tried it!!!
There is no other choice ultimately when you think about it. These airlines are going to keep popping up whether you like it or not J3....so stop bitching like a spoilt Gen Y brat, get a change of attitude and do something meaningful and positive whilst attempting to accept reality.
I've met basically two kinds of aircrew over the last twenty years. The majority are intelligent, balanced individuals who would be a credit to any professional organisation. Nothing is too much trouble, they believe in give and take and as a rule want what is best for their industry and the people involved at all levels within it.
The other kind suffice to say would be better off locked up with Bubba with the only decision they need to make is deciding whether they should be the Mama or the Papa for the evening
j3
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So many lies on this subject. the fact are..........
1 15-20 guys have moved over to vb and 1 to pb
2 none had to pay for there endorsments, just another 2 years added to what was left of the 777 bond.
3 most got the base and type they wanted
4 they start at level 3 fo's as they all have more than 1000 jet
so all in all things are pretty good compared to some of the other rubbish gigs out there, for those that joined at the begining, they now have 2 valuable type rating on there licence and are now earning over a 100k
1 15-20 guys have moved over to vb and 1 to pb
2 none had to pay for there endorsments, just another 2 years added to what was left of the 777 bond.
3 most got the base and type they wanted
4 they start at level 3 fo's as they all have more than 1000 jet
so all in all things are pretty good compared to some of the other rubbish gigs out there, for those that joined at the begining, they now have 2 valuable type rating on there licence and are now earning over a 100k
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J3 and others, There is career progression from VA to VB. You apply internally after 18-24 months with VA. Most CFO's who have been here that long either took an E-jet or 737 FO job, some got told to reapply in 6 months and some have rejected E-Jet FO positions while waiting for 737 courses to start again.
It's not all bad..... and it's not for life. If you don't like it, you just leave after doing your time.
It's not all bad..... and it's not for life. If you don't like it, you just leave after doing your time.
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....and yet J3...you still don't have an answer to the question on how best to improve this industry from an industrial relations standpoint!
Remind me to put your name forward for the next round of T&C negotiations as a participant in the process!! That should be a hoot!
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going back to my miserable life complaining bitterly about my lot in life, waiting for a chance that will never come (see the above "useless old wannabe has-been") whilst wondering how I came to be in this position in my quest for an airline career (again, see "pissant" above) when I have this unbelievable unoticed and unappreciated ability (see "remoak").
I look forward to your erudite reply
Regards,
Drivr
Remind me to put your name forward for the next round of T&C negotiations as a participant in the process!! That should be a hoot!
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going back to my miserable life complaining bitterly about my lot in life, waiting for a chance that will never come (see the above "useless old wannabe has-been") whilst wondering how I came to be in this position in my quest for an airline career (again, see "pissant" above) when I have this unbelievable unoticed and unappreciated ability (see "remoak").
I look forward to your erudite reply
Regards,
Drivr
JetX,
Cheers for the info.
GADRIVR, my learned fellow,
Thought long and hard about it and realised I'd rather watch re-runs of Judge Judy whilst driving clouting nails through my eyelids than bother engaging with you again.
j3
Cheers for the info.
GADRIVR, my learned fellow,
Thought long and hard about it and realised I'd rather watch re-runs of Judge Judy whilst driving clouting nails through my eyelids than bother engaging with you again.
j3
Also when you move to VB unlike the guys coming off the street to do the endorsement the VA guys/gals will still be getting paid and accomodation allowances while not in their home base of Sydney. They do not resign, they keep their same staff number.
Additionally there is an EBA being negotiated at the moment with renumeration and career progression the major points.
For all the haters out there grow up
Additionally there is an EBA being negotiated at the moment with renumeration and career progression the major points.
For all the haters out there grow up
Sprucegoose
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MD, my only advice would be make sure you get involved in the group exercise!
PS: Apologies for staying on topic...
PS: Apologies for staying on topic...