$12M fire bomber trial
Evertonian
Thread Starter
$12M fire bomber trial
$12M fire bomber trial
Is it just me, or do we not have the capability to develop something like this "in house"? Or, is it more a case of spending copious amounts of dollars on foreign equipment is easier to palate than having faith in local industry?
(No offence intended to the foreign crews btw)
Is it just me, or do we not have the capability to develop something like this "in house"? Or, is it more a case of spending copious amounts of dollars on foreign equipment is easier to palate than having faith in local industry?
(No offence intended to the foreign crews btw)
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thinking out loud
I always wondered why you could not say develop a load package for a C-130 that could do this sort of job. A roll on roll off baffled tank with a dump valve hanging out the back.
The C-130 loads up, heads out and does its thing. Meanwhile a second load tank is being refilled on the ground ready to be switched over when the aircraft returns, rinse, repeat.
I am sure there are probably practical reasons why this would not work (too slow to turn around, not the right dumping method, aircraft not suited for the job perhaps) but it always stuck with me when we had big fires that we had a number of large capacity transport aircraft with very capable low level pilots sitting idle.
Tell 'em he's dreamin'
The C-130 loads up, heads out and does its thing. Meanwhile a second load tank is being refilled on the ground ready to be switched over when the aircraft returns, rinse, repeat.
I am sure there are probably practical reasons why this would not work (too slow to turn around, not the right dumping method, aircraft not suited for the job perhaps) but it always stuck with me when we had big fires that we had a number of large capacity transport aircraft with very capable low level pilots sitting idle.
Tell 'em he's dreamin'
I have actually had something to do with "rolling off" and "rolling on" a prototype military something into and out of a Hercules and the idea of a five minute turn around is a fantasy after the design of the thing is engineered and tied down to military specifications.
You need to think litres per hour delivered to the fire front. Size isn't everything.
You need to think litres per hour delivered to the fire front. Size isn't everything.
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As for using RAAF C-130 aircraft for fire bombers, how would this impact on the life of the aircraft re cycles and fatigue ; being used at low level in a bumpy flight enviroment.
As always...the CFA want this to fail.
How much refurbing of our already owned Trackers can we get for 12mill?
Just wish these twits would get a team of 415s and just keep out of the way and let the crews work.
How much refurbing of our already owned Trackers can we get for 12mill?
Just wish these twits would get a team of 415s and just keep out of the way and let the crews work.
Evertonian
Thread Starter
What happened to the DC-10 that was on a discrete AOC issued last year?
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The DC-10 was a $10 million trial and appeared to be a political reaction to save face to the Russian alternative suggested by the Libs. Could never see how that would ever be as effective as Elvis & friends. The turn around time was not pretty and the Skycrane could dump more liquid on target than the DC-10.
Where was the 10 going to be based? Moorabbin, no, only B767s land there. Essendon, no, too noisey for the home owners. Tulla, mmmm, that would be good having an empty firefighter getting priority over regular users. Now where else is there???????
Where was the 10 going to be based? Moorabbin, no, only B767s land there. Essendon, no, too noisey for the home owners. Tulla, mmmm, that would be good having an empty firefighter getting priority over regular users. Now where else is there???????
Evertonian
Thread Starter
Where was the 10 going to be based? Moorabbin, no, only B767s land there. Essendon, no, too noisey for the home owners. Tulla, mmmm, that would be good having an empty firefighter getting priority over regular users. Now where else is there???????
This subject seems to pop up every 6 months or so.
The Convair is a good machine, but we have too few airports equipped to handle it.
The RAAF tried a MATTS system in the back of a Herc in the early 80's. Unfortunately their lead time to fight a fire meant that the fire usually got the upper hand. Not enough flexibility.
The DC-10 was a knee-jerk, and unsuitable for the job here.
Australia already has the answer; lots of Airtractor 802's and very skilled and knowledgeable crews, but it seems the authorities here want an overseas solution. Can't imagine why, as this usually results in a very expensive, less than perfect outcome.
The Convair is a good machine, but we have too few airports equipped to handle it.
The RAAF tried a MATTS system in the back of a Herc in the early 80's. Unfortunately their lead time to fight a fire meant that the fire usually got the upper hand. Not enough flexibility.
The DC-10 was a knee-jerk, and unsuitable for the job here.
Australia already has the answer; lots of Airtractor 802's and very skilled and knowledgeable crews, but it seems the authorities here want an overseas solution. Can't imagine why, as this usually results in a very expensive, less than perfect outcome.
Bottums Up
I've oft wondered why the Bombardier CL-415 was discounted. WS was the Australian agent in the mid 90's and tried to generate interest, without success.
As I understand, it only requires shallow water, can load 6000 litres in seconds.
As I understand, it only requires shallow water, can load 6000 litres in seconds.
From the Bombardier web site:Aerospace > Products > Amphibious Aircraft > FAQs
How much distance does the Bombardier 415 take to scoop its load?
The Bombardier 415 is very manoeuvrable. If a body of water is 1,341 metres (4,400 feet) long by 90 metres (300 feet) wide and 2 metres (6 feet) deep, without floating debris, then it is scoopable*. Only 400 metres (1,350 feet) are actually required on the water, the remainder being needed for approach and climb-out. Of course, these distances can be reduced by scooping partial loads or scooping while turning. Speed on the water while scooping is 75 knots. Approximately 10 to 12 seconds are required between touchdown and lift-off to scoop a load.
How much distance does the Bombardier 415 take to scoop its load?
The Bombardier 415 is very manoeuvrable. If a body of water is 1,341 metres (4,400 feet) long by 90 metres (300 feet) wide and 2 metres (6 feet) deep, without floating debris, then it is scoopable*. Only 400 metres (1,350 feet) are actually required on the water, the remainder being needed for approach and climb-out. Of course, these distances can be reduced by scooping partial loads or scooping while turning. Speed on the water while scooping is 75 knots. Approximately 10 to 12 seconds are required between touchdown and lift-off to scoop a load.
You need lakes for a CL415, Canada has lost of them, we don't. I can't speak for NSW or Rocky valley near Falls Creek, but Lake Eildon would be a nightmare for them in my opinion, especially when we are talking about winds.
You have reasonably high terrain to the South and East plus the Eildon State Park Ridge in the middle plus the power lines (which have already claimed Four Lives and really are invisible) there is considerable turbulence, then there are the snags, and of course you would have to chase the water skiers off it.
You might be able to use the Lakes like Mokoan near Benalla and the Nagambi pondage. The Golbourn and Murray rivers aren't wide enough.
You have reasonably high terrain to the South and East plus the Eildon State Park Ridge in the middle plus the power lines (which have already claimed Four Lives and really are invisible) there is considerable turbulence, then there are the snags, and of course you would have to chase the water skiers off it.
You might be able to use the Lakes like Mokoan near Benalla and the Nagambi pondage. The Golbourn and Murray rivers aren't wide enough.
CW is quite correct. This argument keeps coming up. It would seem that no one in this country understands fixed wing amphibs scooping from a pond.
This re-inventing the wheel killed Col Pay!
This re-inventing the wheel killed Col Pay!
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As a matter of interest, was the DC-10 ever deployed against a real fire emegency/ies and, if so, what were the pro's and cons of that/those deployment/s?