I made Captain! Now how do I be one?
Assisting with radio, briefing pax, but a low time, I assume endorsed pilot, flying leg for leg in a single pilot aircraft is not increasing safety.
When a pilot is training his trainer commands from the right seat usually.
A lot of PA31 especially the later models have fully duplicated controls and instrumentation similar to any larger multicrew aircraft. If the pilot on the right side is from an instructing background he may be more adept flying from that side.
In larger multicrew aircraft the FO usually always flies from the right hand seat so is this more dangerous?
Sector for sector enhances safety by keeping both pilots current on the handling and capabilities of the aircraft. If the pilot lacks experience make their sectors the easy ones perhaps, but to deny them flying if they are allowed to serves little purpose.
The main issue is that if the second pilot is not actively flying the aircraft is he then logging the hours as co-pilot, are they entitled to any hours?
When we operated charters two crew we flew sector for sector with each flying leg logged as command and the PNF just acted as an observer with no logged time, but it did count towards duty flight hours. Some of the very experienced pilots just opted to be observers the whole day and let the junior guy log all the time. If the other pilot lacked the required experience then ICUS was used.
Both pilots were paid the same rate.
Last edited by 43Inches; 30th Aug 2010 at 01:46.
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Read what he said.
He is worried about how far to let these guys go!
In "proper" multiple crew ops, the pilot in the right Gand seat is trained, checked, instrument rating checked, whether sim or in aircraft in that seat.
If both pilots are endorsed and checked in the left hand seat, that's where they should fly from. Alternate sector for sector.
Most airlines would not allow a pilot to fly from a seat they are not trained and checked to fly from, and that I believe, is as it should be.
If these guys are of such a standard that this guy needs guidance from a rumor network, then I doubt whether they should be flying the aircraft at this stage.
To put this into perspective, the people who want and pay for two pilots are paying for an improved level of safety not assisting with hour building or to see GA ops pretend they're an airline.
The safest way of operating is to monitor the fully trained pilot fly the aircraft from the seat he is trained and checked in, and here's a new idea, maybe they could learn something from the PIC
He is worried about how far to let these guys go!
In "proper" multiple crew ops, the pilot in the right Gand seat is trained, checked, instrument rating checked, whether sim or in aircraft in that seat.
If both pilots are endorsed and checked in the left hand seat, that's where they should fly from. Alternate sector for sector.
Most airlines would not allow a pilot to fly from a seat they are not trained and checked to fly from, and that I believe, is as it should be.
If these guys are of such a standard that this guy needs guidance from a rumor network, then I doubt whether they should be flying the aircraft at this stage.
To put this into perspective, the people who want and pay for two pilots are paying for an improved level of safety not assisting with hour building or to see GA ops pretend they're an airline.
The safest way of operating is to monitor the fully trained pilot fly the aircraft from the seat he is trained and checked in, and here's a new idea, maybe they could learn something from the PIC
In "proper" multiple crew ops, the pilot in the right Gand seat is trained, checked, instrument rating checked, whether sim or in aircraft in that seat.
What are multi-crew ops?
They are any operation involving more than one crew member.
Flight instruction/training is essentially a multi-crew operation, how much CRM and guidance on when to take-over do they get?
You are refering to airline operations with refined multicrew procedures and SOP. The guy in this situation sounds like charter with two pilots, he has not specified the level of training (or lack of) the pilots recieve. They could undergo training in right seat flying or not he has not specified.
Good on him for asking the question, even if it is a wind-up.
If the co-pilot is not safe to take-off and land in reasonable conditions he should not be employed in a flying position. If the conditions are to minima and marginal fly the sector yourself. Any captain who does not trust his opposite number to land an aircraft needs to have a sit down and chat with management about the issue so it can be resolved. A PA31 is not a hard aircraft to fly in good weather. I was flying one around single pilot at about 300 hours total time.
I know many airline pilots who would not be able to say the point they would take-over from a co-pilot other than when its unsafe, the command training usually does not cover this situation other than stateing if you need to then do it! Arresting control from a flying pilot due to unsafe flying, whether it be from the co-pilot or the captain is a big deal and should require a report on the exact nature of the event. Co-pilots actually need to ask this question to as they have the right to assume control if the captain tries something silly.
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A lot of bigger singles and the lighter twins set up for Single-pilot ops. have the instruments, checklists, radar, GPS, etc, set up for viewing from the normal (left) pilots seat. You will have to make a call on how well the occasional pilot who is flying the sector at the time has easy access to all the information you have from your side as well. Have seen even experienced senior pilots and chief pilots, who put a low priority on the facilities provided to the right side rider on even regular two pilot RPT and extensive charter Ops. The other CRM experience will come with dedicated Multi-crew training, and knowledge of the appropriate sections of your Ops Manual procedures (if you have them), or of study of others procedures (if you company doesn't, - a pretty poor show on their behalf if that is the case, for this type of op). You definitely need an In-house standard, without having to trawl for advice on a Rumour site.
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I can see by some of the responses to this thread that I perhaps wasn't clear enough on the advice I am seeking. I have gone through all the single pilot training, two crew training, SOP's, know the OPs spec's and details of the OC for our company aswell as the limitations of the plane. Numbers and regulations have all been part of the training.
I personally believe that to most effectively do my job, I must excell at more than just the air reg's, call outs and procedures. I must display qualities of safety, judgement and leadership. I won't find those in the back of any POH. Every step of my career I have asked for advice from those who have been there, and it has made all the difference so far.
I personally believe that to most effectively do my job, I must excell at more than just the air reg's, call outs and procedures. I must display qualities of safety, judgement and leadership. I won't find those in the back of any POH. Every step of my career I have asked for advice from those who have been there, and it has made all the difference so far.
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Hey ABboy. I have to ask, why did you post this on the D&G forum? I have to say, I think you may have reached the end of good advice. FWIW, you should lead by example. FO's can learn just as much through observation of a competent and confident Captain as any other method. Keep the lines of communication open and ensure they are free to voice their concerns. A good debrief at the end of the flight is equivalent to the advice in the air. Find yourself in Kamloops much perchance? Cheers.
To answer the "proper" multi crew ops question, I would suggest it is when both the Captain and First Officer receive traning and checking spoecific to their role.
I suspect in this operation, in a single pilot aircraft that the company simply finds a pilot, maybe endorsed on type, maybe not and places him in the right hand seat to meet the contract requirements.
There is no such thing as a "First Officer" on a PA31.
I agree with Skynews, the mining companies or governement agencies are looking for a higher level of safety, not a training ground for inexperienced pilots to have a go.
let them have a fly en-route, let them use the radio, let them learn from watching, listen to them and discuss operational issues, BUT DON"T let them take off and land.
As for instructors, I have a considerable amount of time instructing and teaching inbstructor ratings and I can assure you they are trained when to take over. Its a completely different ball game.
I suspect in this operation, in a single pilot aircraft that the company simply finds a pilot, maybe endorsed on type, maybe not and places him in the right hand seat to meet the contract requirements.
There is no such thing as a "First Officer" on a PA31.
I agree with Skynews, the mining companies or governement agencies are looking for a higher level of safety, not a training ground for inexperienced pilots to have a go.
let them have a fly en-route, let them use the radio, let them learn from watching, listen to them and discuss operational issues, BUT DON"T let them take off and land.
As for instructors, I have a considerable amount of time instructing and teaching inbstructor ratings and I can assure you they are trained when to take over. Its a completely different ball game.
Went to take over? When you feel that if the situation was allowed to continue, you would be uncomfortable with your ability to safely take control and recover the situation. The point that this occurs will vary. The more experience you have, the more comfortable you will be in slightly abnormal situations and you will be able to give the FO more opportunity to recover the situation themselves.
If an FO does call you on a speed or tracking tolerance or points out you have made an error make sure it is clear you appreciate the input (no matter how stupid it may have been)
Can be equally annoying for an FO, to have a nervous captain riding them with advisory calls which are not required. Can put the FO on edge and make things worse. Had a capt do this to me in a sim and it just made the exercise a whole lot harder than it had to be. Thankfully the checkie saw what was going on and told said capt to give me a break!
Always amuses me in a dark way why a government contract would require two crew for safety, yet are happy that the aircraft is 30 plus years old, made to lesser engineering safety standards than today, has vortex generators to lift that little bit more off the ground, but do not increase the safety in any way if one goes quiet at a bad moment. In fact these aircraft do not even need to be able to stop in the runway remaining OR climb out if one fails....
2 pilots - yup, much safer
P.S. This not a dig at you Albertaboy...
2 pilots - yup, much safer
P.S. This not a dig at you Albertaboy...
I used to fly chieftains a few years ago. Some of the work we did required 2 crew. When we did these jobs we didnt treat it as a 2 crew operation, it was flown as a single pilot operation with the other pilot sitting in the copilots seat. On occasion they would work the radios. Both crew members were qualified to fly PIC on the aeroplane, so we would swap seats every sector so that we could each have a fly.
Bottom line, the chieftain is a single pilot aeroplane. If you are flying it as a two pilot operation then the company should really have some sort of SOP's in place. If there arent any SOP's then it will make it harder for you to determine when to take over or not.
I would set my own limits and stick to them. That way if the other pilot exceeds these, then you can take over. In the debrief you could explain the reason as to why you took over. Some examples of limits that I would set for myself are:
1) Rate of descent must not be in excess of 1000 fpm on finals
2) Final approach speed tolerance could be Vref + 10 and minus 0.
3) Tracking tolerance no more than half scale deflection for VOR/ILS or +/- 5 degrees for NDB.
4) Glideslope +/- 1 dot or PAPI no more than 3 reds/whites
4) Altitudes +/- 200 ft
Hope this helps.
Bottom line, the chieftain is a single pilot aeroplane. If you are flying it as a two pilot operation then the company should really have some sort of SOP's in place. If there arent any SOP's then it will make it harder for you to determine when to take over or not.
I would set my own limits and stick to them. That way if the other pilot exceeds these, then you can take over. In the debrief you could explain the reason as to why you took over. Some examples of limits that I would set for myself are:
1) Rate of descent must not be in excess of 1000 fpm on finals
2) Final approach speed tolerance could be Vref + 10 and minus 0.
3) Tracking tolerance no more than half scale deflection for VOR/ILS or +/- 5 degrees for NDB.
4) Glideslope +/- 1 dot or PAPI no more than 3 reds/whites
4) Altitudes +/- 200 ft
Hope this helps.
