Is RACWA on finals? YOU WERE WARNED!!
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Air Sic, I do so hope you're wrong but I fear you're spot on. 
LOLcheck - There's no IFR training now at all, single or multi. Just another spontaneous decision by the geniuses on the Committee and the the new GM.
LOLcheck - There's no IFR training now at all, single or multi. Just another spontaneous decision by the geniuses on the Committee and the the new GM.
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Mooney I don't know the current President nor have any affiliation to any of the current committee, but all I have observed on this thread is that people have had issues with at least the past 3 committees, past CEO's, past CFI's, Presidents, Treasurers etc..
Surely one committee or president might be on the nose, but not all of them? I recall prior to the election of this committee that everyone was upset about the present committee, but now history just seems to repeat! Will the new GM (albiet temporary) also cop a load of criticsm and a vote of no confidence? Where does it end? Just like in the business world, we are not all going to agree and get along, but surely members should start to glue together in some way, minus the ego's, and help those that are charged with the Club's future.
I have no desire to see the Club flounder. In fact, it will be a really sad day for the WA aviation community, and the committed people that are current employees - as you state, it's peoples lives and lively hoods that will be affected.
Surely one committee or president might be on the nose, but not all of them? I recall prior to the election of this committee that everyone was upset about the present committee, but now history just seems to repeat! Will the new GM (albiet temporary) also cop a load of criticsm and a vote of no confidence? Where does it end? Just like in the business world, we are not all going to agree and get along, but surely members should start to glue together in some way, minus the ego's, and help those that are charged with the Club's future.
I have no desire to see the Club flounder. In fact, it will be a really sad day for the WA aviation community, and the committed people that are current employees - as you state, it's peoples lives and lively hoods that will be affected.
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They offered to the club an ability to sell all of YMUL (they had a buyer), at full valuation price, keep a parcel of land for RACWA and be a share holder in the development of YMUL. This would see RACWA with -
I think at this point the members have every right to be suspicious of related party transactions. These concerned members are free to put the proposal via the expressions of interest process.
I'm sure that if it is as good as you suggest it will be warmly received.
For an aero club the runways might be important-if it keeps any interest in YMUL.
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Wondering how much is owed in redundancies, holiday entitlements ???
Dare I ask how much is outstanding in super ????
How much is the new GM claiming ?
Does anyone have that great article from the club presidetn many years ago announcing the purchase of WAAC and how RACWA were to become a force to be reckoned with, nationwide and worldwide ???
Dare I ask how much is outstanding in super ????
How much is the new GM claiming ?
Does anyone have that great article from the club presidetn many years ago announcing the purchase of WAAC and how RACWA were to become a force to be reckoned with, nationwide and worldwide ???
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spot on Wiley...there's a lot more to redundancies that thinking that they've just cut the weekly payroll by 20%...perhaps they are looking at showing the bank a decrease in oncosts for future sustainability?
To the Pres, Icarus, T28d, Previous CEO JG, Previous CEO AH, Previous Treasurer PL.....FU%K YOU ALL! ATTITUDES SUCH AS YOURS HAVE SUCCESSFULLY SCREWED THE POOCH ON THIS CLUB
You have no idea what my attitudes are. All you know is what I said in my post. Which was mainly that I was sick of people bagging the club from the sidelines and that the club constitution is available on their website.
Airsic, you are selectively reporting the FACTS.
Additionally the level of agression in your posts suggests that you are less than rational in your thoughts and attitudes towards those who are and have been running Racwa.
Last edited by Icarus2001; 10th Feb 2011 at 04:13.
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Sweet - I hear what you're saying, but I think so many members are unhappy with the way the club side of things have been allowed to deteriorate over the last 4 or 5 years, not to mention the aeroplanes.
Its out of a sense of frustration that each new committee brings with it a sense of hope for change, but nothing happens. The finances just get worse and new aeroplanes are just a dream.
I'm starting to think that Administration might not be a bad thing. It'll purge the place and as a result some fresh thinking and a new business model might evolve.
RACWA has (or maybe had) a great heritage, but it's been squandered by successive administrations. It's losing the respect and the prestige it once had. The current Committee aren't to blame for that, but they seem to be focussed on cutting the heart out of the place with no real plan how to rebuild. Or if they have, they haven't shared it with the members. The silence is deafening. It's time for a Members Information night at least.
Its out of a sense of frustration that each new committee brings with it a sense of hope for change, but nothing happens. The finances just get worse and new aeroplanes are just a dream.
I'm starting to think that Administration might not be a bad thing. It'll purge the place and as a result some fresh thinking and a new business model might evolve.
RACWA has (or maybe had) a great heritage, but it's been squandered by successive administrations. It's losing the respect and the prestige it once had. The current Committee aren't to blame for that, but they seem to be focussed on cutting the heart out of the place with no real plan how to rebuild. Or if they have, they haven't shared it with the members. The silence is deafening. It's time for a Members Information night at least.
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Maybe its time for some new management. Out with the old committee and in with an entire new board. Bring in a committee that has no affilation with the club, just people with good business sence.
I am personly sick of have the 'club aspect' come first when making descision. The Aero Club is a fantastic flight training facility, that should be the main priority by the committee. If they stopped worrying so much about the next spot landing comptetion and more on business, there would be no problems.
I see the Aviation College students as major part of RACWA's suvival. If the time was taken to inprove the facilities (mainly aircraft), WAAC could be the answer alongside selling YMUL.
I am personly sick of have the 'club aspect' come first when making descision. The Aero Club is a fantastic flight training facility, that should be the main priority by the committee. If they stopped worrying so much about the next spot landing comptetion and more on business, there would be no problems.
I see the Aviation College students as major part of RACWA's suvival. If the time was taken to inprove the facilities (mainly aircraft), WAAC could be the answer alongside selling YMUL.
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I have been following this thread with interest and find it very dissapointing to see RACWA heading in this direction.
I used to instruct there back in the old and new building. The club bar used to be a great social, a place where you could take your students at the end of the day and often rolled out quite late on. There was always something going on and the flying was buzzing. There used to be a good spirit throughout.
All I can say is that I wish the place well and the club is able to turn itself around. A club is about the people, it's members and attitude.
Good luck !
I used to instruct there back in the old and new building. The club bar used to be a great social, a place where you could take your students at the end of the day and often rolled out quite late on. There was always something going on and the flying was buzzing. There used to be a good spirit throughout.
All I can say is that I wish the place well and the club is able to turn itself around. A club is about the people, it's members and attitude.
Good luck !
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A club is about the people, its members and attitude.
In the last case, there are ever increasing costs and fully commercial competitors to deal with. Some of those competitors will be fly-by-nighters, but they are still competition while they last. There is a need to have people on the committee or on the payroll who understand these issues, but not always the means to pay them properly. The committee structure and longevity of such clubs also lends itself to infighting, backstabbing and simmering issues that should have been resolved in 1985 and weren't, along with people who are involved for suspicious personal motives and a bunch of well meaning but incompetent fruitbats.
As I said, I have not been involved in a flying club but have 15 years experience in a similar, committee controlled commercial NFP enterprise. The issues sound the same.
If you want the club to survive, you need to take care of the business that feeds it. To take care of the business you need people on the committee with small business experience in a similar area that understand the basic 'money in money out' concept. What you don't need is government or big business types that don't understand the hand-to-mouth principle that guides a successful small business. Fruitbats are also a problem and you need mitigation strategies to deal with them (task groups are a great diversion, they let members 'be involved', do some of the donkey work and occasionally stumble on good ideas by mistake
). What you really don't need is in-fighting, distrust and backstabbing. Our club survived thanks to a president and several senior committee members that had the right amount of small business expertise, bull-headedness and lack of interest in in-fighting. They each put in a huge amount of personal effort (15+ hours a week) into the club to keep it going. They were also beyond suspicion when it came to personal interests, ie they had nothing to gain by being involved.
If you don't have that, you need it. If you can't find it, you are in trouble.
Apologies if this doesn't apply to your club/business enterprise, but I can't think that they're all that different. At the end of the day, if the business is not viable you need to find something that is, to support the Club and pay the bills associated with it owning its property. Otherwise, mathematics takes over and you will fold.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 10th Feb 2011 at 11:10.
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Well said Worrals.
"Take care of the buisness that feeds it". Basically you are saying this is a service-based organsiation. The staff unfortunatley dont see it this way. The staff are arrogant, some instructors are ignorant to service and the atmosphere oozes a nasty smell that would make most people uneasy. No small wonder the members are leaving. No wonder newbies walk in and walk out. No wonder the club is recording a falling trend in activities.
I know of no "fly-by night" operations at JT. Every single commercail operation is there to make money, develop its client base and develop their business. How many of you ewatched and waited as Min and Chucky struggled. But.. they are still there, flying, flying flying....oh and taking RACWA studetns who couldn't be looked after properly. They are there sucessful and happy, while the arrogant languish and point fingers.
Well done Min and Chucky. Look at them grow, look at their fleet they operate, look at the sucess they bring to GA. It can work and it can be sucessful, but most importantly they look after the hand that feeds them.
Over 15 years ago I spoke out many times to the CP/CFI/GM about issues at the club. They were Comm Pilots and I was a student, they looked down on me. They were arrogant, they belittled me and they took no notice.
Today the club is in ruins. That attitude perpetuated through the years. That attitude engrained in their instructor course. That attitude demonstrated by the serivce staff behind the desk has all been a key factor in the downturn of the club.
Even to this day, that arrogance exists. The problem is systemic and there is no antidote..
without members, there is no club. Without instructors they are simply a building. without a lease, there is no RACWA.
"Take care of the buisness that feeds it". Basically you are saying this is a service-based organsiation. The staff unfortunatley dont see it this way. The staff are arrogant, some instructors are ignorant to service and the atmosphere oozes a nasty smell that would make most people uneasy. No small wonder the members are leaving. No wonder newbies walk in and walk out. No wonder the club is recording a falling trend in activities.
I know of no "fly-by night" operations at JT. Every single commercail operation is there to make money, develop its client base and develop their business. How many of you ewatched and waited as Min and Chucky struggled. But.. they are still there, flying, flying flying....oh and taking RACWA studetns who couldn't be looked after properly. They are there sucessful and happy, while the arrogant languish and point fingers.
Well done Min and Chucky. Look at them grow, look at their fleet they operate, look at the sucess they bring to GA. It can work and it can be sucessful, but most importantly they look after the hand that feeds them.
Over 15 years ago I spoke out many times to the CP/CFI/GM about issues at the club. They were Comm Pilots and I was a student, they looked down on me. They were arrogant, they belittled me and they took no notice.
Today the club is in ruins. That attitude perpetuated through the years. That attitude engrained in their instructor course. That attitude demonstrated by the serivce staff behind the desk has all been a key factor in the downturn of the club.
Even to this day, that arrogance exists. The problem is systemic and there is no antidote..
without members, there is no club. Without instructors they are simply a building. without a lease, there is no RACWA.
I have been following this thread with interest, hoping to see a happy ending, and am now going to give my Two cents worth of advice after reading a certain comment from Worrals:
I have seen at least Five Ski clubs fail through exactly the following process. I respectfully suggest that RACWA members might like to consider this tale, if they have not already come to the same conclusion.
With skiing clubs the process is like this: The club charges members say $20.00 per night. The commercial rate at the resort hotels is $50.00 per night.
After a few good seasons, a Committee members says "I have this bright idea." Lets take in some paying guests in the club at $40.00 per night to fill our spare rooms. With the extra money they bring in we can hire some cleaners and cooks so we don't have to do any stuff ourselves. We can just sit and sink beers all night after skiing."
...And the club proceeds to do exactly that. They take in guests, and hire a lot of staff to take care of all the work around the club that used to be done by club members for free. They also charge themselves an accommodation rate less than the full costs of running the club, instead relying on the extra income from the guests to balance the books.
That works really well (so they think) until there is an unseasonably warm skiing season.....The "guest" income vanishes, but the fixed costs of the cook, the cleaners, the child minder, etc. are still there.
At the end of the ski season the club has made a big loss. There is talk of insolvency, bitter arguments about attracting more guests, bitter arguments about attracting less guests and "the old days". The club dissolves itself and its assets are placed on the market.
Watched that happen at least Five times on Mt. Buller.
You should not run a business with the idea that it is going to "feed" a club, nor the reverse, unless their Boards are totally separate, because their objectives and strategies must be totally separate, or they will both likely fail.
It is just possible to perform such a miracle, but only if you have a Board or General Committee composed of superhuman intellects with iron discipline, because the traps are many and varied in trying to do this, which is why it is better not to try.
Those traps include the club catering primarily for the students and not the members and vice versa. Then there is the possibility that the club staff will use the "divide and conquer" method where the club is run for the benefit of the staff. This often involves the formation of a "club within a club" composed of senior staff and certain "senior members" that seem to obtain preferential treatment all the time. However these problems can remain masked for quite a while if business conditions are good. Thankfully what I've seen has been in Ski ,Sailing and City clubs. I haven't seen it in an Aero club, but considering aircraft utilisation, instructors, etc., it must be a perfect storm to deal with.
I know absolutely nought about RACWA except from what I've read in these pages. What I do know is that the only way a club will survive in the long term is to apply absolute financial discipline to avoid hidden cross subsidies and rigid attention to minimising costs.
The way I have seen clubs get out of a mess like this is to return to first principles. It's the members who matter, no one else. I've seen a Club President having to take the axe to a "popular" CEO or Club Secretary Three times and having to turf out "honorary members" and other hangers on that don't pay their way, raise charges and fire long serving but under performing "popular" staff as well.
I note the club has apparently lost its new treasurer. This is not encouraging.
Good luck.
If you want the club to survive, you need to take care of the business that feeds it.
With skiing clubs the process is like this: The club charges members say $20.00 per night. The commercial rate at the resort hotels is $50.00 per night.
After a few good seasons, a Committee members says "I have this bright idea." Lets take in some paying guests in the club at $40.00 per night to fill our spare rooms. With the extra money they bring in we can hire some cleaners and cooks so we don't have to do any stuff ourselves. We can just sit and sink beers all night after skiing."
...And the club proceeds to do exactly that. They take in guests, and hire a lot of staff to take care of all the work around the club that used to be done by club members for free. They also charge themselves an accommodation rate less than the full costs of running the club, instead relying on the extra income from the guests to balance the books.
That works really well (so they think) until there is an unseasonably warm skiing season.....The "guest" income vanishes, but the fixed costs of the cook, the cleaners, the child minder, etc. are still there.
At the end of the ski season the club has made a big loss. There is talk of insolvency, bitter arguments about attracting more guests, bitter arguments about attracting less guests and "the old days". The club dissolves itself and its assets are placed on the market.
Watched that happen at least Five times on Mt. Buller.
You should not run a business with the idea that it is going to "feed" a club, nor the reverse, unless their Boards are totally separate, because their objectives and strategies must be totally separate, or they will both likely fail.
It is just possible to perform such a miracle, but only if you have a Board or General Committee composed of superhuman intellects with iron discipline, because the traps are many and varied in trying to do this, which is why it is better not to try.
Those traps include the club catering primarily for the students and not the members and vice versa. Then there is the possibility that the club staff will use the "divide and conquer" method where the club is run for the benefit of the staff. This often involves the formation of a "club within a club" composed of senior staff and certain "senior members" that seem to obtain preferential treatment all the time. However these problems can remain masked for quite a while if business conditions are good. Thankfully what I've seen has been in Ski ,Sailing and City clubs. I haven't seen it in an Aero club, but considering aircraft utilisation, instructors, etc., it must be a perfect storm to deal with.
I know absolutely nought about RACWA except from what I've read in these pages. What I do know is that the only way a club will survive in the long term is to apply absolute financial discipline to avoid hidden cross subsidies and rigid attention to minimising costs.
The way I have seen clubs get out of a mess like this is to return to first principles. It's the members who matter, no one else. I've seen a Club President having to take the axe to a "popular" CEO or Club Secretary Three times and having to turf out "honorary members" and other hangers on that don't pay their way, raise charges and fire long serving but under performing "popular" staff as well.
I note the club has apparently lost its new treasurer. This is not encouraging.
Good luck.
Last edited by Sunfish; 10th Feb 2011 at 17:57.
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Then there is the possibility that the club staff will use the "divide and conquer" method where the club is run for the benefit of the staff. This often involves the formation of a "club within a club" composed of senior staff and certain "senior members" that seem to obtain preferential treatment all the time. However these problems can remain masked for quite a while if business conditions are good.
Well said, Sunfish. It also applies to WAAC
Well said, Sunfish. It also applies to WAAC
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You should not run a business with the idea that it is going to "feed" a club, nor the reverse, unless their Boards are totally separate, because their objectives and strategies must be totally separate, or they will both likely fail.
Out of interest (sorry for the drift), why didn't the ski clubs keep their staff casual? Then they could have laid them off during the poor seasons.
Worrals:
They did keep their staff casual and it didn't help. The Australian ski season is about Twelve to Sixteen weeks.
I stand by what I said. Either you are running a club or a business. It is almost impossible to run them together. For example, what happens when you have Four or Five foreign students training for their commercial licences progressing nicely in hours building and Navs in a nice little Piper Arrow and that old fart of a member Sunfish comes along and hires said Arrow in the middle of their training to take the missus for a couple of weeks of touring?
How do you balance the needs of instructors, paid by their hours with a batch of foreign kids each of whom is worth $40,000++ in instructors revenue and aircraft hire hours against the needs of a weekend warrior member who wants a few hours of tutelage before a BFR?
Instructors seem to think that members are an impediment to making the maximum revenue out of foreign commercial students. Members seem to think that commercial foreign students are an impediment to enjoying recreational flying. You get my drift?
Both of the examples I mentioned are not hypothetical, and it takes a great deal of tact, goodwill and clear thinking to balance out those (and other) competing interests. It would appear that some clubs do it better than others judging by RACWA's apparent experiences, but what would I know?
Good luck and I hope RACWA can resolve matters.
Out of interest (sorry for the drift), why didn't the ski clubs keep their staff casual? Then they could have laid them off during the poor seasons.
However, in recent years we have decreased the Club side of the organization and concentrated on the commercial business. We found that all a lot of the club type members did was sit around and complain without using the product, and it was better to concentrate on attracting the general public. Members who are genuninely keen tend to volunteer to help out with running the place anyway.
How do you balance the needs of instructors, paid by their hours with a batch of foreign kids each of whom is worth $40,000++ in instructors revenue and aircraft hire hours against the needs of a weekend warrior member who wants a few hours of tutelage before a BFR?
Instructors seem to think that members are an impediment to making the maximum revenue out of foreign commercial students. Members seem to think that commercial foreign students are an impediment to enjoying recreational flying. You get my drift?
Both of the examples I mentioned are not hypothetical, and it takes a great deal of tact, goodwill and clear thinking to balance out those (and other) competing interests. It would appear that some clubs do it better than others judging by RACWA's apparent experiences, but what would I know?
Good luck and I hope RACWA can resolve matters.
I have often seen Sunfish throw his/her two cents in on the forum, but this is the first time I can't agree more with his viewpoint..
The example of the foreign students progressing along nicely vs old timer member that wants to pvt hire the arrow for a few hours over a week or two spells out the combined club/business model is anything but flawed..
Good luck over there in WA, but I don't forsee a good end to the situation at this rate from what I have read on here..
The example of the foreign students progressing along nicely vs old timer member that wants to pvt hire the arrow for a few hours over a week or two spells out the combined club/business model is anything but flawed..
Good luck over there in WA, but I don't forsee a good end to the situation at this rate from what I have read on here..
Sunfish you speak a great deal of sense, however this line...
ignores the fact that RACWA has been doing this succesfully for decades. The balance is achieved by careful management of the flying program. For starters most private hirers want the aircraft on weekends, full time students week days, a perfect fit you might say. If crusty old Sunfish wants an aircraft for two weeks, well the fleet size needs to accomodate that. RACWA has a large fleet and there are daily minimum flying requirements for a two week hire so that neither the club or the member misses out.
You seem to suggest that the RACWA model is flawed. Well it has survived for a very long time. Recent events surrounding WAAC and debt have made a major contribution to the present situation along with a downturn in flying generally.
As far as I know until recently the club owned their buildings and fleet of aircraft. The purchase of WAAC changed that hence the present predicament. It does not mean that they will fail, they may, but even a bank like Bankwest, owned in turn by Commonwealth bank, knows that there is more money to be made by trading out of the mess than by winding it all up and paying K and M hundreds of thousands in fees to liquidate.
How do you balance the needs of instructors, paid by their hours with a batch of foreign kids each of whom...
You seem to suggest that the RACWA model is flawed. Well it has survived for a very long time. Recent events surrounding WAAC and debt have made a major contribution to the present situation along with a downturn in flying generally.
As far as I know until recently the club owned their buildings and fleet of aircraft. The purchase of WAAC changed that hence the present predicament. It does not mean that they will fail, they may, but even a bank like Bankwest, owned in turn by Commonwealth bank, knows that there is more money to be made by trading out of the mess than by winding it all up and paying K and M hundreds of thousands in fees to liquidate.
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Wiley
I am interested in the fact that WAAC has the 3rd CFI and CGI in a very short time.
Are there anybody left ?
Do they still have the required amount of instructors to continue operating ?
Are they about to import some more "friends only" on 457 visas?
The new CGI has only been there for 4 months.
Is that the "debacle" you are referring to?
I am interested in the fact that WAAC has the 3rd CFI and CGI in a very short time.
Are there anybody left ?
Do they still have the required amount of instructors to continue operating ?
Are they about to import some more "friends only" on 457 visas?
The new CGI has only been there for 4 months.
Is that the "debacle" you are referring to?
Last edited by Nirak; 11th Feb 2011 at 06:08. Reason: correcting sentence