visual circling off an instrument approach

[Johnny_56]

Hi all,

I have a question for all the professional pilots who rumour on this network.

Lets say you are conducting a BLOGS RWY 05 VOR approach. The MDA staight in is 1300ft and for circling is 1600ft.

In the approach you break visual at 1350ft but are unable to land straigh in for some reason.

My question is can you then circle to land? After reading Jepps it says you must conduct a missed approach if you can't land off a runway approach unless you can circle at the circling minima. But then it says that you can descend below MDA if you are in day and can visually clear yourself from obstacles, with correct visual limits within you circling area (lits day and lets say we can see the obstacles)

Is this only from the circling minima that you are supposed to be at or can it be from straight in minima.

Cheers guys

[The Green Goblin]

If you are visual and by day you can maneuver as required provided you maintain 300 (I'm assuming you're cat b) feet obstacle clearance and remain in the 2.66nm circling area. You would also want to be pretty familiar with the aerodrome in IMC conditions to take this option. At night you must commence a missed approach if you are below the circling minima and can't land off the instrument let down to the MDA if it is lower than the circling minima.

If there is a chance you may need to circle at night you would brief the approach based on the circling minima, or be prepared to conduct the missed approach via the missed approach point if you're not visual.

[j3pipercub]

Jepp Terminal 3.13.3

OR

AIP ENR 1.7.3

Have a look for yourself

[Icarus2001]

The MDA staight in is 1300ft and for circling is 1600ft.
In the approach you break visual at 1350ft but are unable to land straigh in for some reason.

My bolding.

If you were planning to circle you would have briefed accordingly and bugged that way. So at 1600' you would have commenced a missed approach.

If you have briefed for a straight in and cannot do it you should make a missed approach.

However... At 1350' what are you agl? Do you know that the critical obstruction is X on one side of the runway and you can circle the other side?
Are you VERY familiar with the airport and surrounds?

[das Uber Soldat]

The regs make no distinction between night or day. You must go around unless you are able to circle in conditions that are equal to or better than the circling minima.

[j3pipercub]

here we go again,

The regs make no distinction between night or day. You must go around unless you are able to circle in conditions that are equal to or better than the circling minima.

Ummm, Uber, no.

JEPP Terminal 3.13.3 para 'e'

in daylight only, while complying with a., b. and c., maintains visual contact with obstacles along the intended flight path and obstacle clearance not less than the minimum for the aircraft performance category until the aircraft is aligned with the landing runway

Minimum Obstacle Clearance is 300ft for Cat A/B. That's not the circling minima in the majority of cases, that is well below.

AND, before you got quoting 3.10.1 para 'd', it says

[sic] A missed approach must be executed if:

d. a landing cannot be effected from a runway approach, unless a circling approach can be conducted in weather conditions equal to or better than those specified for circling

This does not mean that in order to conduct a circling approach the aircraft must be flown at the circling minima. It can be descended down to a minimum of 300ft above terrain in order to conduct a circling approach... until a position on downwind base or final...etc...

note. Almost all of this was copied from an earlier thread about 3 months ago

j3

[Monopole]

In the original question, a straight in approach was being conducted, and a landing could not 'effected', and he was BELOW the circling minima, therefore in your quote from the Jepps j3pipercub, a missed approach must be conducted.........

[The Green Goblin]

The regs make no distinction between night or day. You must go around unless you are able to circle in conditions that are equal to or better than the circling minima.

You can't be serious???

I think you better read the Jepps else you are going to lose some of that credibility!

[j3pipercub]

It amazes me how many people have difficulty with this simple process.

Monopole, provided the Straight in Approach minima was higher than 300ft AGL, you could descend below that minima to 300ft.

In daylight the circling minima is not the minimum height for circling (provided within circling area etc).

therefore in your quote from the Jepps j3pipercub, a missed approach must be conducted.........

I would REALLY like you to show me where that is in the JEPPS...

j3

[The Green Goblin]

In the original question, a straight in approach was being conducted, and a landing could not 'effected', and he was BELOW the circling minima, therefore in your quote from the Jepps j3pipercub, a missed approach must be conducted.........

At night yes, during the day no.

I hope you guys are not METAs teaching this crap!

And yes if you were in an A380 it's probably not a good idea to circle around Sydney below the MDA during the day.......however the regs will allow you to do it by day!

[Monopole]

Simple J3supercub, you said it yourself

A missed approach must be executed if:


Quote:
d. a landing cannot be effected from a runway approach, unless a circling approach can be conducted in weather conditions equal to or better than those specified for circling

The conditions specified for circling are on the chart. In the case of Johnny_56 example it is x.x vis and 1600'. Just because you are allowed to decend to the OCA in day, does not mean you are allowed to do so and circle in conditions less then the circling minima. The circling minima is 1600' and the cloud base is 1350' in this example.
It amazes me how many people have difficulty with this simple process.

[The Green Goblin]

Simple J3supercub, you said it yourself
Quote:
A missed approach must be executed if:


Quote:
d. a landing cannot be effected from a runway approach, unless a circling approach can be conducted in weather conditions equal to or better than those specified for circling
The conditions specified for circling are on the chart. In the case of Johnny_56 example it is x.x vis and 1600'. Just because you are allowed to decend to the OCA in day, does not mean you are allowed to do so and circle in conditions less then the circling minima. The circling minima is 1600' and the cloud base is 1350' in this example.
It amazes me how many people have difficulty with this simple process.

Conditions meaning VISIBILITY

It amazes me how many people have difficulty with this simple process.

Back at ya son!

Lets also think of this from an operational perspective, you are visual at 1300 feet however a tad high to land or you notice another aeroplane enter the runway. You would be pretty dopey to conduct a missed approach back into the soup and risk not getting in and diverting when you can circle around and maneuver as low 300 AGL if required. Personally I would just maintain the MDA and circle to land.

[desmotronic]

Yes you can Johnny, common sense as it was intended despite what pin heads and anal retentives might say.. if you can see the obstacles you only need OCA.

Now compare the viz requirements and MDA's for straight in v's circling...

eg.. consider you are making straight in approach and at the straight in MDA with sufficient visibility to circle but not land straight in...

[Monopole]

It might say maintain specified visibility along the intended flight path or whatever, but the conditions to perform a circling approach as depicted on the charts also include cloud base.............

Lets also think of this from an operational perspective, you are visual at 1300 feet however a tad high to land or you notice another aeroplane enter the runway. You would be pretty dopey to conduct a missed approach back into the soup and risk not getting in and diverting when you can circle around and maneuver as low 300 AGL if required

I'll rather look dope then be dead. If you are too high to land from a RWY aligned approach then a landing cannot be effected, and in my opinion, neither can you circle to land because you are in condition below the circling minima.

[Ando1Bar]

I'm with j3 and GG.

Monopole etc., so you're telling us that you've just completed an instrument approach down to the runway approach minima. You stopped descending, still in cloud, at the MDA, but prior to the MAP you break visual too close to the runway to land i.e. 'a landing cannot be effected'. Despite the fact you are visual, clear of cloud and can see the runway, you're going to now conduct a missed approach and attempt the whole thing again?

The rest of us are going to circle, going as low as 300ft above obstacles (not comfortable, I know) and land on the runway we initially intended to.

Obviously I can't do this as night, I'd need to climb to the circling MDA if I wanted to now circle (which is unlikely as it would most likely put me in to cloud again).

What about airports like Kingaroy (only one that comes to mind, I'm sure there are plenty of others across the country)? The only approach (excluding RNAV) is the NDB rwy-16 (runway aligned). Based on some people's theories it might be impossible to use the airport if wind conditions did not allow a landing on 16. Or how about the RFDS pilot coming in to land, breaks visual at night at 2500ft but is too high or unable to land straight ahead for whatever reason. What's to stop him now circling above the MDA of 2470? Missed approach? I don't think so.

Be careful with opting to do conduct a circling approach in this manor. Many ops procedures will preclude you from doing anything other than what you have briefed.

Then brief your circling options.

Some will argue that you could just brief that you will circle if you cant land straight in but most check and trainers will tell you this is not acceptable.

WTF? Really?


Late addition:

I'll rather look dope then be dead. If you are too high to land from a RWY aligned approach then a landing cannot be effected, and in my opinion, neither can you circle to land because you are in condition below the circling minima.

You are visual despite being below the circling minima. Just land the plane.

If in your example you mean you are still in cloud or the viz doesn't allow circling then speak up.

[Monopole]

Ando, well yes, unfortunately that is what I am saying based on what I have learnt (theory and experience). It aint a very big jet plane I am flying, but I sure as hell will not be circling at the OCA regardless of the weather conditions.

[j3pipercub]

It aint a very big jet plane I am flying, but I sure as hell will not be circling at the OCA regardless of the weather conditions.

That's nice, but what you would or wouldn't do has no bearing on the regs.

I am sorry that you are unable to see the regs for how they were written.

It might say maintain specified visibility along the intended flight path or whatever, but the conditions to perform a circling approach as depicted on the charts also include cloud base.............

Yes, and this is correct during the hours of night. However, during hours of daylight there is the condition of descent below the minima.

[Ando1Bar]

It aint a very big jet plane I am flying, but I sure as hell will not be circling at the OCA regardless of the weather conditions.

If you're circling at OCA it's a pretty farked up day and you've had to descend lower then the straight-in MDA to do so (most likely situation could be low cloud patches in the circuit). But based on the above posts you're ruling out any circling below the circling minima, which in most cases is anything up to 700 or 800 feet above ground level. We turn base every day at 500ft, it's not that scary flying so low.

Circling at OCA is an option available to you, nothing says you must circle this low.

Not a personal attack at you Monopole, but boy I've read some crap on this forum this afternoon. The circuit shape thread is a hoot.

[Monopole]

Not a personal attack at you Monopole, but boy I've read some crap on this forum this afternoon. The circuit shape thread is a hoot

I know its not Ando. A healthy debate may have me (or you guys) seeing it a little bit of differant light.

But considering that I
a) do not have the jepps in front of me and
b) about to settle down for a few beers,

Im going to walk away from this topic until latter. I may even go over to the other thread, have a giggle and lighten up a touch.

[j3pipercub]

b) about to settle down for a few beers

lucky bugger