Weapon of choice
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Weapon of choice
G'day folks, like many I am looking for advice from people who have been there done that.
I have a very strong business case to fly consultants regionally instead of them driving for many hours to reach their destinations throughout NSW, then returning to base. I have recently proven savings on a number of flown trips to date. So I am now looking to put a comprehensive proposal forward to some eager clients.
Following, are my requirements
Questions to help choose A/C
All the insurances, ownership vs Rental etc will be considered down the track. I guess what I am looking for is opinions (constructive that is) from people who have been involved in similar type ops to get me on the right track to start with. May I ask that if you offer some info, you also provide a reason so I can understand why.
Cheers all, looking forward to some feedback.
I have a very strong business case to fly consultants regionally instead of them driving for many hours to reach their destinations throughout NSW, then returning to base. I have recently proven savings on a number of flown trips to date. So I am now looking to put a comprehensive proposal forward to some eager clients.
Following, are my requirements
- Range up to 500nm (typically 2-300nm)
- Operating from Bankstown
- IFR
- Stable A/C for consultants to work in - Wx permitting
- Room to work in cabin for Pax (I like the club seating)
- No more than 2 pax, generally 1
- Occasional station strips
- Private operation – my company, I will fly
- Conservatively expecting 400+ hrs per year
- Newly minted MECIR pilot
Questions to help choose A/C
- I am taking mainly middle aged women consultants, so I don’t think an Arrow or even a 210 will sit too well.
- The consultants being carried charge out @$160/hr+ so speed is a consideration.
- Will I need to fly in the FL’s to minimize cancelled trips and avoid icing in winter?
- Given an estimated 30% of night ops, esp in winter, is a twin a consideration?
- Which A/C offer a good speed vs operating cost ratio
All the insurances, ownership vs Rental etc will be considered down the track. I guess what I am looking for is opinions (constructive that is) from people who have been involved in similar type ops to get me on the right track to start with. May I ask that if you offer some info, you also provide a reason so I can understand why.
Cheers all, looking forward to some feedback.
- Range up to 500nm (typically 2-300nm)
- Operating from Bankstown
- IFR
- Stable A/C for consultants to work in - Wx permitting
- Room to work in cabin for Pax (I like the club seating)
- No more than 2 pax, generally 1
- Occasional station strips
- I am taking mainly middle aged women consultants, so I don’t think an Arrow or even a 210 will sit too well.
- The consultants being carried charge out @$160/hr+ so speed is a consideration.
- Will I need to fly in the FL’s to minimize cancelled trips and avoid icing in winter?
- Given an estimated 30% of night ops, esp in winter, is a twin a consideration?
- Which A/C offer a good speed vs operating cost ratio
I am thinking <$500/hr either operating or rental.
And that is a Private operation? I would have thought at minimum it was Aerial Work but more likely Air Charter?
Sprucegoose
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At that rate and with club seating you are probably only looking at 2 options, Bonanza, or Saratoga/Lance. Josh has a great suggestion but not sure your budget will even stretch that far!
I have a couple of questions:
Are the consultants willing to fly in a single? Many are not.
How many hours are you looking at doing per year?
If it were me, I'd be looking at a Beech Duke (mainly because I like them), if money was no object then it would be a turbine Duke!
I have a couple of questions:
Are the consultants willing to fly in a single? Many are not.
How many hours are you looking at doing per year?
If it were me, I'd be looking at a Beech Duke (mainly because I like them), if money was no object then it would be a turbine Duke!
At that budget you can write off half your shopping list.
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I guess I want to make it attractive for them to go. I can't walk into the office and dictate "get in that light A/C you're off to Coonamble". They have to agree to it. I think the club seating gives a sense of more space. It has to be economic also, and over the $500/hr things start to go south compared with driving.
OK, I think a Malibu, is out of the budget, a Duke is possible depending on operating costs. Any real world figures on running something like a A36 or Lance?
Oh, and yes they are professional consultants, but they are not in "that" profession!
FL is not essential, just not sure how much of an advantage it would be.
OK, I think a Malibu, is out of the budget, a Duke is possible depending on operating costs. Any real world figures on running something like a A36 or Lance?
Oh, and yes they are professional consultants, but they are not in "that" profession!
FL is not essential, just not sure how much of an advantage it would be.
Will I need to fly in the FL’s to minimize cancelled trips and avoid icing in winter?
Given an estimated 30% of night ops, esp in winter, is a twin a consideration?
Given an estimated 30% of night ops, esp in winter, is a twin a consideration?
Think Baron or C310/340 - think $600/hr min.
Dr
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If you are considering a Lance/Saratoga, you may as well consider a C210.
Travelair.
IFR twin, 150kts and good range when filled up (likely with 1-2 pax!) Cheap to run.
Partenavia (probably similar to above).
If you want the FLs, your probably going to want de-icing and obviously at least crew oxy which = more $$$$
Travelair.
IFR twin, 150kts and good range when filled up (likely with 1-2 pax!) Cheap to run.
Partenavia (probably similar to above).
If you want the FLs, your probably going to want de-icing and obviously at least crew oxy which = more $$$$
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Mate, don't like to burst your bubble, but at $500/hr you are not in the twin market. I have been there and done almost the exact same thing, and did very well at it, in a C182 & A36. Occasionally I would hire a PA31 or a Baron; eventually the pax started asking for the twins and the company agreed to pay the extra hourly rates.
$500/hr and 400 hr/yr should get you into a decent Bonanza or Lance which will give you the seating / space you want, and there is nothing wrong with their manners or performance for the price.
Duke? Labour intensive; unique TSIO-541 engines; avgas.....you will nearly get a Kingair for the (real) hourly cost of a Duke
Don't try to kid yourself with costs - aeroplanes - ANY aeroplanes - are BLOODY expensive.
Consultants at $160/hr? That is pretty cheap consultancy rates, in any field.
PM me if you want more.
$500/hr and 400 hr/yr should get you into a decent Bonanza or Lance which will give you the seating / space you want, and there is nothing wrong with their manners or performance for the price.
Duke? Labour intensive; unique TSIO-541 engines; avgas.....you will nearly get a Kingair for the (real) hourly cost of a Duke
Don't try to kid yourself with costs - aeroplanes - ANY aeroplanes - are BLOODY expensive.
Consultants at $160/hr? That is pretty cheap consultancy rates, in any field.
PM me if you want more.
Last edited by Jamair; 18th Mar 2010 at 05:36.
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Left field.....Extra 300...get in, belt up, hang on, and shut up!! They may not get much work done, but it'll be a hell of a ride!!!
estimated 30% of night ops
If I choose to do it myself - that is a different matter, but I would choose not to do 30% night in a piston single.
Operating a lightie, especially a single IFR, is all about managing risk.
Dr
I think your budget is unrealistic.
Considerations:
1. You want to make a profit. Without that, how are you going to pay yourself?
2. You need to maintain the machine to a top standard. Don't do what everyone else does and charge out the machine at the bottom line and then wonder why after 10 years the machine is constantly in the hangar broken, the paint is falling off it, the interior is shot, and you're wondering why you ever bothered.
3. Presentation is everything. Don't get the cheapest, crappiest machine, because it falls under your "$500/hr bracket". Without good presentation, your clients won't be coming back.
4. Unless you work for the company in mind (ie. who all these 'clients' work for), then you will have to get an AOC, meaning you will have to classify these as Charters, also meaning if you want night and IFR, you will require a twin, or a turbine single along with the multitude of paperwork involved with ASETPA.
With those in mind, I'd say you're better off changing it to a minimum of $1,000/hr. Even something like a Baron (which I don't have the exact figures for), I personally wouldn't charge anything less than about $1,000/hr.
I'm sure there are people who will say I'm nuts and I'm dreaming, but I wouldn't be in it to make sure someone get's a cheap deal on their charter. I'd be in it, to provide the best value for money on someone's charter, and to ensure I'm not going to be going broke down the track, because I didn't plan on maintaining the machine beyond what even the best laid plans expect.
Aircraft will always cost you ****loads more than planned. Why not factor in some more cost so that you're not going into administration 2 years down the track.
morno
Considerations:
1. You want to make a profit. Without that, how are you going to pay yourself?
2. You need to maintain the machine to a top standard. Don't do what everyone else does and charge out the machine at the bottom line and then wonder why after 10 years the machine is constantly in the hangar broken, the paint is falling off it, the interior is shot, and you're wondering why you ever bothered.
3. Presentation is everything. Don't get the cheapest, crappiest machine, because it falls under your "$500/hr bracket". Without good presentation, your clients won't be coming back.
4. Unless you work for the company in mind (ie. who all these 'clients' work for), then you will have to get an AOC, meaning you will have to classify these as Charters, also meaning if you want night and IFR, you will require a twin, or a turbine single along with the multitude of paperwork involved with ASETPA.
With those in mind, I'd say you're better off changing it to a minimum of $1,000/hr. Even something like a Baron (which I don't have the exact figures for), I personally wouldn't charge anything less than about $1,000/hr.
I'm sure there are people who will say I'm nuts and I'm dreaming, but I wouldn't be in it to make sure someone get's a cheap deal on their charter. I'd be in it, to provide the best value for money on someone's charter, and to ensure I'm not going to be going broke down the track, because I didn't plan on maintaining the machine beyond what even the best laid plans expect.
Aircraft will always cost you ****loads more than planned. Why not factor in some more cost so that you're not going into administration 2 years down the track.
morno
Club seating is nice, but in a Baron/Bonanza the aft facing and forward facing punters are always banging their knees.
It works well if you only have 2 in the back on opposite sides else the middle row punters are pushing there seats as far back as it will go. This bumps into your seat and as you are flying you are always being nudged forward by the punter behind you.
While I much love the beech, i'd have to say even if the punters have to squeeze up the back into a 210, it's a little more comfy for them once they are in and there is much more baggage space than the beech.
A Partenavia is a good suggestion and comparable in operating costs to a 210 however good ones are hard to find and the companies with them tend to keep them as they are a bit of a money spinner.
It works well if you only have 2 in the back on opposite sides else the middle row punters are pushing there seats as far back as it will go. This bumps into your seat and as you are flying you are always being nudged forward by the punter behind you.
While I much love the beech, i'd have to say even if the punters have to squeeze up the back into a 210, it's a little more comfy for them once they are in and there is much more baggage space than the beech.
A Partenavia is a good suggestion and comparable in operating costs to a 210 however good ones are hard to find and the companies with them tend to keep them as they are a bit of a money spinner.
My choice would be in the multie-engine field a low time Piper PA-31/310( a few still around that have been privaely owned) or Kingair C-90, if is was to be a single probably a TBM-700.
Beech Duke is an awesome aeroplane but you will make local LAME a wealthy man, Cessna C340 are a good but not the greatest performer in hot weather.
Beech Duke is an awesome aeroplane but you will make local LAME a wealthy man, Cessna C340 are a good but not the greatest performer in hot weather.