Airspace issues descending into Perth?
Thread Starter
Airspace issues descending into Perth?
Hi Guys,
I have been based overseas for well over a decade and have only really operated into Sydney and Melbourne in the last 15 years. Always in the flight levels under radar/ADSB contact.
Soon I will be regularly flying to Perth from Asia, (as well as Adelaide and Brisbane) and i wondering if during my descent i will be flying through any Class E airspace. Assuming a descent profile of about 1000' for every 4nm. ie descending from FL400 at about 160DME.
I have assumed that i would always be in Class A/B in Australia, but am not sure about in the west or Adelaide.
I dont have any Jeppesens with me at the moment, hence my question. I also couldn't find the charts on the Airservices site, only numerical Lat/Longs.
My purpose for asking the question is purely to help my situational awareness, as i understand that i may be sharing airspace with non radar identified or radio transmitting VFR aircraft and need to operate accordingly.
Thanks in Advance.
I have been based overseas for well over a decade and have only really operated into Sydney and Melbourne in the last 15 years. Always in the flight levels under radar/ADSB contact.
Soon I will be regularly flying to Perth from Asia, (as well as Adelaide and Brisbane) and i wondering if during my descent i will be flying through any Class E airspace. Assuming a descent profile of about 1000' for every 4nm. ie descending from FL400 at about 160DME.
I have assumed that i would always be in Class A/B in Australia, but am not sure about in the west or Adelaide.
I dont have any Jeppesens with me at the moment, hence my question. I also couldn't find the charts on the Airservices site, only numerical Lat/Longs.
My purpose for asking the question is purely to help my situational awareness, as i understand that i may be sharing airspace with non radar identified or radio transmitting VFR aircraft and need to operate accordingly.
Thanks in Advance.
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Out of curiosity, and assuming you fly out of Singapore, as per your public profile, where else do you fly except Sydney and Melbourne?
Thanks in advance, I'm just interested in your question and how your assumptions may impact upon your future regular flights to Perth.
Thanks in advance, I'm just interested in your question and how your assumptions may impact upon your future regular flights to Perth.
Thread Starter
Basically I have only really operated SY and ML.
My curiosity was piqued when reading the "NAS" thread and remembered some company info from years ago about descending in Australia and using LDG lights etc below FL180 due to possible flight through Class E airspace.
I was wondering how valid this still is as i understand that there have been a few changes recently.
If i am mistaken, than I apologise for wasting everyones time.
Thanks.
My curiosity was piqued when reading the "NAS" thread and remembered some company info from years ago about descending in Australia and using LDG lights etc below FL180 due to possible flight through Class E airspace.
I was wondering how valid this still is as i understand that there have been a few changes recently.
If i am mistaken, than I apologise for wasting everyones time.
Thanks.
Balthazar 777,
Frank's is a good question. Assuming you are based in Singapore, or somewhere in the area, there's lots of G and E to your northwest, what does your company do there ---- or is it only E in Australia, about which they get twitchy.
What about diverting that takes you into G, which a big Singapore company that flies B777 has done, from Perth, on many an occasion. Or all the G in Africa, etc., etc.
Watch out for that E in Germany and France, scary stuff, E. I hope you never have to fly to India or Pakistan --- have a look at your charts for airspace classifications.
Tootle pip!!
Frank's is a good question. Assuming you are based in Singapore, or somewhere in the area, there's lots of G and E to your northwest, what does your company do there ---- or is it only E in Australia, about which they get twitchy.
What about diverting that takes you into G, which a big Singapore company that flies B777 has done, from Perth, on many an occasion. Or all the G in Africa, etc., etc.
Watch out for that E in Germany and France, scary stuff, E. I hope you never have to fly to India or Pakistan --- have a look at your charts for airspace classifications.
Tootle pip!!
What about diverting that takes you into G, which a big Singapore company that flies B777 has done, from Perth, on many an occasion.
Fortunately Balthazar, a few NMACs after Dick Smith introduced terminal Class E in Oz got it changed back to C. The only hassle now is the limiting steps, which do not suit modern big jets. You will often get "held up" on the 9000ft step, from what I can gather from listening to the R/T. The 5k and 4k steps are also a nuisance.
Nunc est bibendum
For my own interest, what are the steps like out to the NW? It's been a while since I've been into PER from SIN but if the steps are similar to what they are coming in from the east then I'd be surprised if 9000' to 36 miles, 5000' to 22 and 4000' to 18 miles was going to be a drama at 'normal' descent speeds. Speeds above 300 knots may start to cause some dramas- particularly if your company SOPs allow that below 5000' AGL- but again, 'normal' descent speeds (250 below 10'000) shouldn't cause too many dramas?
What a/c type are you talking about Bloggs?
What a/c type are you talking about Bloggs?
What a/c type are you talking about Bloggs?
While the 5000ft and 4000ft steps are not actually limiting (although sometimes by only a couple of hundred feet) it's the plethora of radio calls from Approach clearing aircraft down past each step that is the most annoying, and with occasional holds ups (and missed approaches) due to the radio workload.
Thread Starter
Thanks for the replies and PM's guys.
I had no agenda when asking the question, other than clearing up some confusion I had about Australian airspace. Indeed I operate worldwide and am aware of the airspace that I fly through and fly appropriately.
Hence my question.
My problem with Australian Airspace stems from my OLD memories and the many changes over the years. Just trying to clear that up. I do remember being held up a little longer than I expected previously on descent into Perth. I didn't think about it much at the time, i just followed the ATC instructions. But since I will now be regularly flying there I just wanted to make sure I understood what was going on.
Once again guys, thanks for all the replies. This is definitely the positive side of PPRUNE.
edited for fat finger typos
I had no agenda when asking the question, other than clearing up some confusion I had about Australian airspace. Indeed I operate worldwide and am aware of the airspace that I fly through and fly appropriately.
Hence my question.
My problem with Australian Airspace stems from my OLD memories and the many changes over the years. Just trying to clear that up. I do remember being held up a little longer than I expected previously on descent into Perth. I didn't think about it much at the time, i just followed the ATC instructions. But since I will now be regularly flying there I just wanted to make sure I understood what was going on.
Once again guys, thanks for all the replies. This is definitely the positive side of PPRUNE.
edited for fat finger typos
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Balthazar_777 there is Class E north of Perth, and international a/c profiles usually take them through it. I don't have a chart in front of me either but below F245 prior to 90 miles PH for example will put you in E.
Not true. You will be kept 500' above G. Around Perth there are class C steps over class E. Domestic a/c profiles either by design or happy accident keep them in C, but we do assign levels in E (e.g. we assign A100 at 90 miles which could take them into E). International a/c seem to have much shallower descent profiles, which does take them into E.
(Keg, internationals regularly want lower than A090 prior to 36 miles seemingly regardless of speed, domestics never)
But you will be kept in C all the way down.
ATC keep you in class A/C around all the capital city airports.
(Keg, internationals regularly want lower than A090 prior to 36 miles seemingly regardless of speed, domestics never)
Nope I will confess its been many a year since I had to deal with anything further than 3nm YPJT or 5nm YPPH but a number of years ago when I did fly I do not recall there being E. If it's changed, my bad. I'll worry about that if I ever go to APP or Centre.
Indeed a quick look in DAH
YMMM/PERTH CTA E
LATERAL LIMITS: 33 03 37S 114 46 13E, 32 45 14S 115 06 24E
32 34 11S 115 18 26E,
then along the major arc of a circle of 50.00NM radius centred on
31 56 42S 115 57 34E (PH/DME) to 32 32 16S 116 39 06E
32 40 42S 116 54 07E, 32 54 36S 117 19 06E
then along the major arc of a circle of 90.00NM radius centred on
31 56 42S 115 57 34E (PH/DME) to 33 03 37S 114 46 13E
VERTICAL LIMITS: 8500 − FL180
HOURS OF ACTIVITY: H24
ADMINISTERING AUTHORITY: Airservices Australia
Apologies
Indeed a quick look in DAH
YMMM/PERTH CTA E
LATERAL LIMITS: 33 03 37S 114 46 13E, 32 45 14S 115 06 24E
32 34 11S 115 18 26E,
then along the major arc of a circle of 50.00NM radius centred on
31 56 42S 115 57 34E (PH/DME) to 32 32 16S 116 39 06E
32 40 42S 116 54 07E, 32 54 36S 117 19 06E
then along the major arc of a circle of 90.00NM radius centred on
31 56 42S 115 57 34E (PH/DME) to 33 03 37S 114 46 13E
VERTICAL LIMITS: 8500 − FL180
HOURS OF ACTIVITY: H24
ADMINISTERING AUTHORITY: Airservices Australia
Apologies
Thread Starter
Thanks Nautilus Blue,
That's the sort of info I was after. It seems that I may not be the only one who's a little confused.
The B777 and A330 seem to have shallower descent profiles than aircraft of old. In previous aircraft I flew, 3 X height (+10-15 nm for extra speed) was good, but now I find 4 x height is more appropriate., They are slippery beasts. Also our descents are now normally flown at slower indicated speeds due to cost index usage (ie. money saving).
From the info you have given it seems I will be passing through Class E on descent and probably held up a little higher than I would like due to CTR steps.
Thanks heaps,
I will plan accordingly.
That's the sort of info I was after. It seems that I may not be the only one who's a little confused.
The B777 and A330 seem to have shallower descent profiles than aircraft of old. In previous aircraft I flew, 3 X height (+10-15 nm for extra speed) was good, but now I find 4 x height is more appropriate., They are slippery beasts. Also our descents are now normally flown at slower indicated speeds due to cost index usage (ie. money saving).
From the info you have given it seems I will be passing through Class E on descent and probably held up a little higher than I would like due to CTR steps.
Thanks heaps,
I will plan accordingly.
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No problems Balthazar_777. To clarify my post, there are two separate issues, entering E, and being held up on descent to remain above G.
From memory, outside 90 DME PH, is A down to F245 then E down to F180 then G. Between 90 and 36 DME it's A down to F180, G A085 and below. In between there are descending C steps, and under the steps down to A085 is E.
Assuming no traffic, the lowest you can be assigned is F190 until 90 DME, and then A090 until 36 DME, to stay in controlled airspace (class A,C and E in this case). As the RWY21 STAR from the north is almost straight in this will probably hold you up above profile (RW03 STAR has many more track miles inside 36 DME). Given descent clearance, whether you enter E or remain in A+C is up to you.
On a practical note, the E in question is well under radar cover and I've only ever seen one VFR a/c i it. One of our regulars departs PH northbound sometimes VFR at A095. In this case I wouldn't bother passing traffic, just assign F110 until passed.
From memory, outside 90 DME PH, is A down to F245 then E down to F180 then G. Between 90 and 36 DME it's A down to F180, G A085 and below. In between there are descending C steps, and under the steps down to A085 is E.
Assuming no traffic, the lowest you can be assigned is F190 until 90 DME, and then A090 until 36 DME, to stay in controlled airspace (class A,C and E in this case). As the RWY21 STAR from the north is almost straight in this will probably hold you up above profile (RW03 STAR has many more track miles inside 36 DME). Given descent clearance, whether you enter E or remain in A+C is up to you.
On a practical note, the E in question is well under radar cover and I've only ever seen one VFR a/c i it. One of our regulars departs PH northbound sometimes VFR at A095. In this case I wouldn't bother passing traffic, just assign F110 until passed.
Leadsled,
Did anybody get messed about here? Has your fabled E airspace saved your VFR driver squillions of dollars because he's "free in E"? As opposed to some poor international crew, if the airspace was implemented being strictly to the letter of the law, being given traffic on a VFR opposite direction? What a ridiculous situation. 300+ pax doing self-segregation on a bugsmasher. Wake up to yourself, whoever you are.
On a practical note, the E in question is well under radar cover and I've only ever seen one VFR a/c i it. One of our regulars departs PH northbound sometimes VFR at A095. In this case I wouldn't bother passing traffic, just assign F110 until passed.
Rubbish. Call it what you like, Led, it's ICAO F plus, with FULL DTI, FS, AND mandatory radio AND Transponders above 10k, with mandated Radio for all aircraft at the diversion airfield AND radio freq confirmation. "Class G" my foot.
Things have certainly changed since last time I was in Learmonth, please to hear it's "F+" (whatever that is), must be the first in Australia.
What I think you really meant was directing your comment to what I had to say some way WNW of Singapore.
Silly old me, next time I read G (or D/E) on the Jepp, I'll know that's just Jepp. getting it wrong, and know it's really something else.
Seriously, on a number of occasions over the years, I have found myself up close and personal with military aircraft. Indeed, the primary reason why certain un-named countries in the area referred to refuse to institute A or C in their PDR system is that the military will not accept any restrictions on their operations.
Likewise, you find out what is really going on after a near hit, when (despite all the blather you have described on the airwaves) the, "authority" disclaims all responsibility because it is G or F (or the military aircraft was VFR in E).
Three cheers for TCAS/ACAS ---- I have a lot more faith in it than the various "services" provided around most of the Indian Ocean.
Tootle pip!!