How do you purchase your own plane??
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How do you purchase your own plane??
Been interested to hear how ppl buy their own wings. Do you get a loan like you would if buying a car? Then where do you look to buy? And is putting it on a training school the way to go in recovering most of the costs? Interested to hear from drivers that actually own their own plane.
If you need to put it on line to make it pay, you can't afford it.
It will be either broken or booked every time you want to use it.
The f#$%wits flying it generally won't look after it at all and even if they do, the fact is that "fair wear and tear" will happen much quicker when it is accruing hours quicker.
Work out what sort of aeroplane you want for 90% of your flying. Research the types available in that class - there will usually be a couple of Cessnas, a couple of Pipers, and a couple of "others".
Narrow it down to one type then do all the research on that type and the maintenance issues commonly found, mods available, maintenance schedules, engine & prop overhaul costs. Make sure you identify a couple of LAMEs who can maintain it for you and make sure they ACTUALLY HAVE the licence coverage and aircraft data on the premises.
When I think about all the little things that have burnt me, it's a wonder I have any fingers left to type this...
It will be either broken or booked every time you want to use it.
The f#$%wits flying it generally won't look after it at all and even if they do, the fact is that "fair wear and tear" will happen much quicker when it is accruing hours quicker.
Work out what sort of aeroplane you want for 90% of your flying. Research the types available in that class - there will usually be a couple of Cessnas, a couple of Pipers, and a couple of "others".
Narrow it down to one type then do all the research on that type and the maintenance issues commonly found, mods available, maintenance schedules, engine & prop overhaul costs. Make sure you identify a couple of LAMEs who can maintain it for you and make sure they ACTUALLY HAVE the licence coverage and aircraft data on the premises.
When I think about all the little things that have burnt me, it's a wonder I have any fingers left to type this...
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OR if you're a CPL, you can always set up a sight seeing business to allow you to claim some of the costs back for tax purposes. beats leaving it with flying schools. 
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Thats interesting Pharoah, how do you do that? I thought you needed an AOC? If you dont, then what else can a CPL do without operating under an AOC?
What sort of difference in operating costs would there be between fixed and retract, big engine and little engine, like these in particular: C182, C182RG, C206, PA32-260 and 300, anyone have rough figures of ownership costs of these types, and the pros and cons? What difference in maintence and other costs does maintaining the plane in the charter category and IFR incur?
What sort of difference in operating costs would there be between fixed and retract, big engine and little engine, like these in particular: C182, C182RG, C206, PA32-260 and 300, anyone have rough figures of ownership costs of these types, and the pros and cons? What difference in maintence and other costs does maintaining the plane in the charter category and IFR incur?
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Do not put a privately owned aircraft under the care of ANY other person, it will get wrecked.
Similar to buying a Ferrari and giving it to the local independent car hire company to manage for you, an insane concept.
Wise words are if you cannot pay cash for it, don't do it !!
I own 2 and neither has ever been on line with any operator and my serviceability issues are always minor and corrected easily , annual costs are predictable and insurance premiums reasonable for risk level associated with private operation.
Similar to buying a Ferrari and giving it to the local independent car hire company to manage for you, an insane concept.
Wise words are if you cannot pay cash for it, don't do it !!
I own 2 and neither has ever been on line with any operator and my serviceability issues are always minor and corrected easily , annual costs are predictable and insurance premiums reasonable for risk level associated with private operation.
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Hey SM
I don't know what the requirements are in order to get an AOC or whether you would need an AOC at all to run a small part time business doing joy flights. The accounting/tax side of this I can advise on though which is doable but dependant on the amount of income you actually get.
I don't know what the requirements are in order to get an AOC or whether you would need an AOC at all to run a small part time business doing joy flights. The accounting/tax side of this I can advise on though which is doable but dependant on the amount of income you actually get.
How do you purchase your own plane??
A lot has changed in regard to operating costs since I last owned an aircraft but the basic rules don't.
Start with lots of research, as has been said before know exactly what you want and have a good idea of what it costs to operate. Also don't plan on components such as engines/props/landing gear etc, regularly making it to expected overhaul time (especially older aircraft operating on multiple life parts). Have a large contingency fund built in to your costs.
All aircraft are different and even those of the same type may have large variations in fitments/personality which will affect cost of operation. For instance Cessna 152 have a number of different options for engines/carby/mag/prop combination, some may have lower TBO's & higher service costs than others, all for the same (or less) power output.
Anything with retractable gear is more expensive to insure and maintain.
Having a training aircraft online with the right flying school can be rewarding and pay itself off. If it is damaged the insurance will cover it (or the hirer if doing something they shouldn't). There will be increased wear to an extent due to use however under-utilisation of aircraft can lead to expensive problems as well. Don't buy a non-training aircraft (big singles PA32/Bonanza, turbo-charged types and any twin except maybe a PA44) and expect it to pay for itself in this way, it will get trashed.
Get to know an engineer who you can trust to do pre-purchase inspections, they can often find some interesting history in the books.
The Aviation Trader has listings for Aircraft Sales via dealers and private sale.
Banks will loan funds for aircraft best to shop around for best deals and rates. There are also aircraft financing specialists around.
Insurance can be tricky and expensive and varies greatly with planned usage, the aviation trader again has who to call.
Pharoah:
OR if you're a CPL, you can always set up a sight seeing business to allow you to claim some of the costs back for tax purposes. beats leaving it with flying schools.
If you want to do sight-seeing it's a Charter function. You could set up an AOC for about $5,000 assuming you have all the reqts to be a Chief Pilot for your operation per CAO 82.x
Look at the rates flying schools advertise for their aircraft. If you can't afford the private hire rates, you can't afford to own the aircraft. [b]YES[b] your total costs as private owner should be less... but there is aways potential for a nasty surprise lurking somewhere
If you pay yourself the "private hire" rate for each hour you fly the aircraft, put that money away and don't touch it, you should be able to cover everything.
Good luck and caveat emptor.
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I haven't personally been through the process however a friend recently purchased a Piper. Not sure how you would finance it, but he dipped into the equity in his house to get the cash.
One thing he did do was thoroughly check that there was no existing finance on it, or he could have ended up owning the debt too if there was any.
Aside from that he did a test flight, got a maintenance check done, a bit of haggling, got the money, then did the deal. Ongoing costs now are interest payments, insurance, inspections/maintenance, hangarage, etc.
One thing he did do was thoroughly check that there was no existing finance on it, or he could have ended up owning the debt too if there was any.
Aside from that he did a test flight, got a maintenance check done, a bit of haggling, got the money, then did the deal. Ongoing costs now are interest payments, insurance, inspections/maintenance, hangarage, etc.
Last edited by BoundaryLayer; 12th Feb 2010 at 01:58.
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HappyBandit
Even though the first edition of this book was produced 25 years ago and was written for the American market, it remains a very good reference for the question you asked. Many of the aircraft may have changed (and many haven’t!), but it still provides a sensible framework to arrive at a sensible answer for you.
James E. Ellis Buying and Owning Your Own Airplane 1991 (2nd Edition), Iowa State University Press, ISBN 0-8138-0168-0.
The chapters are:
1. Can I? Should I?
2. Partnerships, clubs and leasebacks
3. Selecting a home field
4. Selecting your airplane
5. Taking possession: paper and red tape
6. Insurance: the expensive enigma
7. Maintenance and miscellany
8. Engine operating practices and overhauls
9. Good aircraft for the first time owner
10. Taildraggers and other traditional airplanes
11. High-performance singles: fulfilling the dream
Copies are available through Amazon – and the same link also recommends some similar books Amazon.com: Buying and Owning Your Own Airplane (9780813801704): James E. Ellis: Books
Hope that helps
Cheers
Pedota
Even though the first edition of this book was produced 25 years ago and was written for the American market, it remains a very good reference for the question you asked. Many of the aircraft may have changed (and many haven’t!), but it still provides a sensible framework to arrive at a sensible answer for you.
James E. Ellis Buying and Owning Your Own Airplane 1991 (2nd Edition), Iowa State University Press, ISBN 0-8138-0168-0.
The chapters are:
1. Can I? Should I?
2. Partnerships, clubs and leasebacks
3. Selecting a home field
4. Selecting your airplane
5. Taking possession: paper and red tape
6. Insurance: the expensive enigma
7. Maintenance and miscellany
8. Engine operating practices and overhauls
9. Good aircraft for the first time owner
10. Taildraggers and other traditional airplanes
11. High-performance singles: fulfilling the dream
Copies are available through Amazon – and the same link also recommends some similar books Amazon.com: Buying and Owning Your Own Airplane (9780813801704): James E. Ellis: Books
Hope that helps
Cheers
Pedota
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12 posts and nobody has stated the obvious...........
If it Flies, Floates or F
's .....rent it, its cheaper by the hour!
Privately owned a Bonanza or similar will cost you $250-$350 an hour. A 172 probably 2/3's of that.
I do have some spread sheets and data you can get a guide from if you wish to contact me.
Joker 10 makes a good point. Horatio Leafie makes a better one......... Pay yourself every hour, into the bank. We run our plane like a business, and the funds accumulate for the big expenses one day. If you sell it, that covers the gap over what it was worth then compared to now!
If it Flies, Floates or F
's .....rent it, its cheaper by the hour!Privately owned a Bonanza or similar will cost you $250-$350 an hour. A 172 probably 2/3's of that.
I do have some spread sheets and data you can get a guide from if you wish to contact me.
Joker 10 makes a good point. Horatio Leafie makes a better one......... Pay yourself every hour, into the bank. We run our plane like a business, and the funds accumulate for the big expenses one day. If you sell it, that covers the gap over what it was worth then compared to now!
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HB:
Read all these posts, however I suggest you don't form an opinion based on pprune only.
Go to your local airfield, talk to some real aircraft owners and get their opinions.
If in the end it still feels right, go for it and have fun.
Read all these posts, however I suggest you don't form an opinion based on pprune only.
Go to your local airfield, talk to some real aircraft owners and get their opinions.
If in the end it still feels right, go for it and have fun.
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Don't buy an aircraft with a fresh 100 Hrly. It is "not" a warranty of serviceability for the next 100 hours, or one year.
The duty of care under common law of the LAME is "to" the individual or owner commissioning the inspection, "not" the buyer. If the vendor is the LAME watch out!
Do and pay for your own final purchase inspection to whatever schedule the aircraft is maintained to and that LAME owes "you" that duty of care. If you can't afford that, you can't afford to own an aeroplane.
If the aircraft is not local, offer to pay the vendor his fuel costs to bring it to you for initial inspection, or meet him half way. This proves both bona fides and seriousness of purpose. Do the initial swapping of photo's before hand and don't make a fool of yourself by making an offer over the phone without first inspecting the machine.
Do a company search to find out who the principals are. If any are ex Military, ex CAX, or ex Bueaucrats, or Politicians, tread very carefully as they "could" be "protected species" under the CASA umberella. (ignore this advice at your peril).
Shared ownership makes so much sense but causes so many problems. If you have a common purpose, such as training, be prepared contracturally to share the losses. I doubt there will be any profits. I have owned 5 and shared 4. Never made a quid out of any.
The duty of care under common law of the LAME is "to" the individual or owner commissioning the inspection, "not" the buyer. If the vendor is the LAME watch out!
Do and pay for your own final purchase inspection to whatever schedule the aircraft is maintained to and that LAME owes "you" that duty of care. If you can't afford that, you can't afford to own an aeroplane.
If the aircraft is not local, offer to pay the vendor his fuel costs to bring it to you for initial inspection, or meet him half way. This proves both bona fides and seriousness of purpose. Do the initial swapping of photo's before hand and don't make a fool of yourself by making an offer over the phone without first inspecting the machine.
Do a company search to find out who the principals are. If any are ex Military, ex CAX, or ex Bueaucrats, or Politicians, tread very carefully as they "could" be "protected species" under the CASA umberella. (ignore this advice at your peril).
Shared ownership makes so much sense but causes so many problems. If you have a common purpose, such as training, be prepared contracturally to share the losses. I doubt there will be any profits. I have owned 5 and shared 4. Never made a quid out of any.
Whatever you do, don't buy "more" aircraft than you really need.
What may seem like a small increase in size / speed / complexity / purchase price can result in HUGE differences in your maintenance bill, especially if anything goes wrong.
I would say one of the most important things to work out is what are you going to use it for 90% of the time and buy something that suits that purpose.
Don't buy something bigger & faster just because you might once a year want to go to the other side of the country if the rest of the time you're just flying around your local patch.
Work out how much you are prepared to spend and then spend no more than 75% of that number on actually buying the aircraft.
Good luck!!
What may seem like a small increase in size / speed / complexity / purchase price can result in HUGE differences in your maintenance bill, especially if anything goes wrong.
I would say one of the most important things to work out is what are you going to use it for 90% of the time and buy something that suits that purpose.
Don't buy something bigger & faster just because you might once a year want to go to the other side of the country if the rest of the time you're just flying around your local patch.
Work out how much you are prepared to spend and then spend no more than 75% of that number on actually buying the aircraft.
Good luck!!
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Very very rough figures? say doing 100hrs/yr
Keeping it somewhere cheap (not a GAAP!! - add 7kish for that by the time you pay hangarage, tower and usage fees)
2 seat single 12k/year (E.g. 152)
4 seat single 15K/year (E.g. 172)
4 seat 6 cyl const speed $22K (E.g. 182)
6 cyl complex const speed retrac 30K (E.g. Bonanza, big Mooney)
Twins? Think of a (big) number - then double it.
On-line? Operating costs go up massively revenue goes up a bit. You only get some cost recovery but the more hours they do the more you make -until something big gets broken (which it will) or becomes due. Then you're well and truely....
Keeping it somewhere cheap (not a GAAP!! - add 7kish for that by the time you pay hangarage, tower and usage fees)
2 seat single 12k/year (E.g. 152)
4 seat single 15K/year (E.g. 172)
4 seat 6 cyl const speed $22K (E.g. 182)
6 cyl complex const speed retrac 30K (E.g. Bonanza, big Mooney)
Twins? Think of a (big) number - then double it.
On-line? Operating costs go up massively revenue goes up a bit. You only get some cost recovery but the more hours they do the more you make -until something big gets broken (which it will) or becomes due. Then you're well and truely....