Wheels Up?
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Wheels Up?
Rumour has it that a Chieftain had a wheels up ldg in NSW very recently - also that there were some "john hops" on board. VH-TT?
Anyone got any info?
Anyone got any info?
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Perth
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PA31's have a real issue with their gear setup.
If there's a bit of stretch in the cable between the gear selector and the hydraulic control valve, you CAN get a situation where a normal selection results in the cycling of the gear doors, but no gear transition.
At the conclusion of all this, the gear handle returns to the normal "gear-down completed" position.
The only give away that this has happened is the lack of the clonks that usually accompany the PA31 gear transition, but if you miss them and there's no mirrors...it's only the gear lights left.
What makes it worse, is that the gear warning horn is usually set to about 12 ins MP which is usually only realised during the last stage of the flare.
If you're one of the people who routinely return the flap selector switch to the neutral position after selecting full flap (as I do to mitigate the risk of a flap motor over-run in the event of a flap-limit switch failure) then you have just inhibited the gear warning horn altogether.
So it's not too surprising that there are a number of PA31 gear-ups.
Not all are necessarily "forgot to lower the landing gear".
If there's a bit of stretch in the cable between the gear selector and the hydraulic control valve, you CAN get a situation where a normal selection results in the cycling of the gear doors, but no gear transition.
At the conclusion of all this, the gear handle returns to the normal "gear-down completed" position.
The only give away that this has happened is the lack of the clonks that usually accompany the PA31 gear transition, but if you miss them and there's no mirrors...it's only the gear lights left.
What makes it worse, is that the gear warning horn is usually set to about 12 ins MP which is usually only realised during the last stage of the flare.
If you're one of the people who routinely return the flap selector switch to the neutral position after selecting full flap (as I do to mitigate the risk of a flap motor over-run in the event of a flap-limit switch failure) then you have just inhibited the gear warning horn altogether.
So it's not too surprising that there are a number of PA31 gear-ups.
Not all are necessarily "forgot to lower the landing gear".
what about the chieftain in tamworth in nov or dec 09
What makes it worse, is that the gear warning horn is usually set to about 12 ins MP which is usually only realised during the last stage of the flare.
VK2TVK
Um, my point being isn't that leaving it a bit late?? I always thought that it would be far more sensible to have the horns set to sound at a power setting slightly higher...
You are entering the flare/ground effect, pull the throttle, hear the horn, and immediately you hear the warning while your hand is still on the throttle - in the perfect position to mash it back towards the firewall...
You are entering the flare/ground effect, pull the throttle, hear the horn, and immediately you hear the warning while your hand is still on the throttle - in the perfect position to mash it back towards the firewall...
ROD on approach, say 500fpm that is over 8 feet per second. Flare height... say about 5-10ft at which the throttles are back at idle. Immediately Horn Blaring...WTF....Oh Sh1t....forgot the gear, max power... and go around without even a scrape. I don't think so!
I think touchdown would occur just between the W and the TF.
ZEEBEE:
Surely the gear lights are a pretty good defense against a wheels up?! The last thing to do after a gear selection is confirm the cycle completed, by reference to THE GREEN LIGHT(S)!! (Have I just sentenced myself to a wheels up, next landing? 
)
@ CS
Yeah, I've wondered myself exactly the same thing as you described in an earlier post. Much better to have a horn going off as a "false alarm" (and probably occasionally at that), when a lower than usual power setting is selected in flight, than have the onset of the warning delayed when a pilot is inadvertantly making an approach without the wheels!
Maybe it's an issue that's more a function of the difference between a normal power setting for late in an approach, and what might be used in other situations.
CR.
but if you miss them and there's no mirrors...it's only the gear lights left.
)@ CS
Yeah, I've wondered myself exactly the same thing as you described in an earlier post. Much better to have a horn going off as a "false alarm" (and probably occasionally at that), when a lower than usual power setting is selected in flight, than have the onset of the warning delayed when a pilot is inadvertantly making an approach without the wheels!
Maybe it's an issue that's more a function of the difference between a normal power setting for late in an approach, and what might be used in other situations.
CR.
Chieftain throttle setting in the circuit, gear up, wouldn't be below 22" even if you were light
...but then it's nearly ten years since I was current in them.
Surely 18" would be a sensible place to set the horn???
...but then it's nearly ten years since I was current in them.
Surely 18" would be a sensible place to set the horn???
Gee TTX must have had a few belly skins over the years.
I saw it at Dysart only a couple of years ago minus the engines and a lot of scraping under the nose.
It came in with 2 down and locked.
Now it's back for new donks again? Oh well that is one way to keep the engines in time !!
I saw it at Dysart only a couple of years ago minus the engines and a lot of scraping under the nose.
It came in with 2 down and locked.
Now it's back for new donks again? Oh well that is one way to keep the engines in time !!
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Horatio
Yes I'm inclined to agree with you;
18" is probably the best place to set them, but i was told they were set lower to prevent scaring pax in the few occasions that they might bring them back a bit.
VK2TVK
Assuming you
A) Reacted quickly enough
B) The TIO's spooled up quickly enough after you've just brought them back through idle;
C) You didn't confuse the gear warning horn for the Stall warning horn
D) The props didn't start excavating the runway.
A lot of if's there...you might want try it on your FltSim
DogCharlieTree
I'm with you Dog. it would probably make a survivable belly scrape into a potential disaster.
Chieftain throttle setting in the circuit, gear up, wouldn't be below 22" even if you were light
...but then it's nearly ten years since I was current in them.
Surely 18" would be a sensible place to set the horn???
...but then it's nearly ten years since I was current in them.
Surely 18" would be a sensible place to set the horn???
18" is probably the best place to set them, but i was told they were set lower to prevent scaring pax in the few occasions that they might bring them back a bit.
VK2TVK
Just thinking out aloud here...
You are entering the flare/ground effect, pull the throttle, hear the horn, and immediately you hear the warning while your hand is still on the throttle - in the perfect position to mash it back towards the firewall...
You are entering the flare/ground effect, pull the throttle, hear the horn, and immediately you hear the warning while your hand is still on the throttle - in the perfect position to mash it back towards the firewall...
A) Reacted quickly enough
B) The TIO's spooled up quickly enough after you've just brought them back through idle;
C) You didn't confuse the gear warning horn for the Stall warning horn
D) The props didn't start excavating the runway.
A lot of if's there...you might want try it on your FltSim
DogCharlieTree
OK lets get just a little bit real and practical.
ROD on approach, say 500fpm that is over 8 feet per second. Flare height... say about 5-10ft at which the throttles are back at idle. Immediately Horn Blaring...WTF....Oh Sh1t....forgot the gear, max power... and go around without even a scrape. I don't think so!
I think touchdown would occur just between the W and the TF.
ROD on approach, say 500fpm that is over 8 feet per second. Flare height... say about 5-10ft at which the throttles are back at idle. Immediately Horn Blaring...WTF....Oh Sh1t....forgot the gear, max power... and go around without even a scrape. I don't think so!
I think touchdown would occur just between the W and the TF.
