All Australian GA pilots annual award review 2009-10
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All Australian GA pilots annual award review 2009-10
Hi all,
As you may of heard Fair Work Australia will be conducting its first annual wage review for 2009-10. I urge all fellow GA pilots to make a personal submission stating: Pay conditions, cost of living and cost of pilot training etc.
As per current AFAP award many pilots around Australia are still being paid close to minimum wage. If justification and pressure from submissions can be made there may be a chance for change in the industry. Details below:
Call for Submissions
Fair Work Australia, the national workplace relations tribunal, is conducting its first annual review of minimum wages in modern awards and the national minimum wage order. Any interested person is welcome to make a submission.
The closing date for lodging written submissions is 19 March 2010.
Full details of the review including the timetable for submissions, reply submissions, and post-Budget submissions can be found on the Fair Work Australia website: www.fwa.gov.au
Submissions and inquiries can be emailed to [email protected]. Submissions may also be mailed to Fair Work Australia, Annual Wage Review, GPO Box 1994, Melbourne, Vic 3001.
As you may of heard Fair Work Australia will be conducting its first annual wage review for 2009-10. I urge all fellow GA pilots to make a personal submission stating: Pay conditions, cost of living and cost of pilot training etc.
As per current AFAP award many pilots around Australia are still being paid close to minimum wage. If justification and pressure from submissions can be made there may be a chance for change in the industry. Details below:
Call for Submissions
Fair Work Australia, the national workplace relations tribunal, is conducting its first annual review of minimum wages in modern awards and the national minimum wage order. Any interested person is welcome to make a submission.
The closing date for lodging written submissions is 19 March 2010.
Full details of the review including the timetable for submissions, reply submissions, and post-Budget submissions can be found on the Fair Work Australia website: www.fwa.gov.au
Submissions and inquiries can be emailed to [email protected]. Submissions may also be mailed to Fair Work Australia, Annual Wage Review, GPO Box 1994, Melbourne, Vic 3001.
G'day
Has anyone tried doing this in the past? or is this the first year of it since K.Rudds changes?
Will AFAP be making a submission... (I will contact them also don't shoot me down!)
I think it's a great idea. I'm sure there are heaps of pilots around who complain about how poor the pay is, especially in low end GA/instructing (I'm one of them). It'd be good if we could all DO SOMETHING and maybe get it looked at, worst case scenario they say "no, $33000 is enough". They can't really reduce it that much more!
Anyway that's my two cents, i hope this thread doesn't get lost because no one can be bothered.
Cheers
Has anyone tried doing this in the past? or is this the first year of it since K.Rudds changes?
Will AFAP be making a submission... (I will contact them also don't shoot me down!)
I think it's a great idea. I'm sure there are heaps of pilots around who complain about how poor the pay is, especially in low end GA/instructing (I'm one of them). It'd be good if we could all DO SOMETHING and maybe get it looked at, worst case scenario they say "no, $33000 is enough". They can't really reduce it that much more!
Anyway that's my two cents, i hope this thread doesn't get lost because no one can be bothered.
Cheers
Ok, so i'm reading through the Air Pilots Award on the FWA website...and its talking about things like:
" A pilot flying a turbo-prop aircraft will be paid 797% of the standard rate per annum.A pilot (excluding Fokker-28 pilots) required to hold and exercise the privileges of a Senior Commercial Pilots’ Licence or Airline Transport Pilots Licence by their company or CASA (or who operates under an exemption from holding that licence) will be paid 604% of the standard rate per annum"
and
"A pilot flying a turbo-prop aircraft will be paid 797% of the standard rate per annum"
now those percentages can't be right can they? I mean i'd LOVE to be able to earn that much but surely not?
" A pilot flying a turbo-prop aircraft will be paid 797% of the standard rate per annum.A pilot (excluding Fokker-28 pilots) required to hold and exercise the privileges of a Senior Commercial Pilots’ Licence or Airline Transport Pilots Licence by their company or CASA (or who operates under an exemption from holding that licence) will be paid 604% of the standard rate per annum"
and
"A pilot flying a turbo-prop aircraft will be paid 797% of the standard rate per annum"
now those percentages can't be right can they? I mean i'd LOVE to be able to earn that much but surely not?
Keep reading
The standard rate is (from memory) 1/800 of the annual SE CHTR salary.
If you multiply it out, it comes very close to the old instructor and IFR loadings from the old award.
If you multiply it out, it comes very close to the old instructor and IFR loadings from the old award.
No guys, you take the basic salary per annum divide by 52 then multiply by the % to find the add on to the basic salary.Divide by 800 for the hourly rate if your a casual.Very complicated,very cleverly worked out.It's SOOO good I got a 4cent per hour pay rise as a casual grade 3 !!!
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Standard rate is defined in the front of the award. Basically all those 700% etc is just what your getting now. Why they just didn't use something like 7.34 x Standard rate etc is beyond me, but hey.
As for the AFAP, I'll let you know that both they and industry bodies were pushing to get an excemption to the reduced working fornight hours so as to keep the 90 hour limit. Be careful with dealing with them, in some respects I'm not too sure how much they really care about GA in the longer run. Btw the above comment was made to me when I rang them and spoke to one of their legal people regarding the definition of aerial work and if it covered flight instruction so it's not heresay.
As for the AFAP, I'll let you know that both they and industry bodies were pushing to get an excemption to the reduced working fornight hours so as to keep the 90 hour limit. Be careful with dealing with them, in some respects I'm not too sure how much they really care about GA in the longer run. Btw the above comment was made to me when I rang them and spoke to one of their legal people regarding the definition of aerial work and if it covered flight instruction so it's not heresay.
Good to see everyone is interested... very positive 
Does anyone have a copy - electronic or otherwise - of previous pilot awards. Preferably from 5+ years ago to see how much the award has increased over the years.
I can get the 2008 version from the AFAP website, but no further back than that.
Does anyone have a copy - electronic or otherwise - of previous pilot awards. Preferably from 5+ years ago to see how much the award has increased over the years.
I can get the 2008 version from the AFAP website, but no further back than that.
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Here's your chance guys and gals - unite and drive it home. The AFAP never gave a damn for GA jocks, never have, never will. They get their big bucks from the majors, if any are affiliated.
I know that all of us are passionate about flying and career goals, but at what expense ? Employers know this and they are out to exploit you, to the max. Do not prostitute yourself to the lowest bidder as you all have to live, eat and breathe.
Base grade public servants minimum pay is approaching 40K - that speaks volumes (this is what a school leaver can expect straight out of school with no other qualifications). Thats what my kidz are getting and more +. Think about it....this your chance to make a respectable living out of GA and what you do as a PROFESSIONAL pilot. Otherwise the employer goes home with all the bacon.
Young rookies may not give a damn at this stage as they have stars in their eyes, but they may later on and wished they had voiced their opinion earlier in their career. In 5-10 years time if some are still left in GA and not given flying away (apart from those who make it to their dreams), they will be totally aggrieved by the whole GA scene like all the others that have preceded them over the years.
This is your big chance for all of you to make a difference to yourselves and the way you earn a living that you spent thousands training for ....do it, do it now !!!
I know that all of us are passionate about flying and career goals, but at what expense ? Employers know this and they are out to exploit you, to the max. Do not prostitute yourself to the lowest bidder as you all have to live, eat and breathe.
Base grade public servants minimum pay is approaching 40K - that speaks volumes (this is what a school leaver can expect straight out of school with no other qualifications). Thats what my kidz are getting and more +. Think about it....this your chance to make a respectable living out of GA and what you do as a PROFESSIONAL pilot. Otherwise the employer goes home with all the bacon.
Young rookies may not give a damn at this stage as they have stars in their eyes, but they may later on and wished they had voiced their opinion earlier in their career. In 5-10 years time if some are still left in GA and not given flying away (apart from those who make it to their dreams), they will be totally aggrieved by the whole GA scene like all the others that have preceded them over the years.
This is your big chance for all of you to make a difference to yourselves and the way you earn a living that you spent thousands training for ....do it, do it now !!!
GA Award 2003
I have dug up copies of the GA award from March 2004 (effective 27/11/03) and September 2005 (eff 31/03/05).
I will upload them and post links to them in due course.
The base salary for SE CHTR in 04 was $27,310
The average Australian income (based on Full-time private sector ordinary time earnings data on the ABS website) in Feb 04 was $50,700
The base salary for SE CHTR in 05 was $29,182
The Average Australian income in FY 05 was $51,802
The base salary for SE CHTR in 2010 is $33,173
The Average Australian income in Aug 09 is $61,328
Assuming that about 10% of our earnings are made up of allowances etc, you would need the base award salary of a DHC-8 Captain to make "average" Australian wages.
I will upload them and post links to them in due course.
The base salary for SE CHTR in 04 was $27,310
The average Australian income (based on Full-time private sector ordinary time earnings data on the ABS website) in Feb 04 was $50,700
The base salary for SE CHTR in 05 was $29,182
The Average Australian income in FY 05 was $51,802
The base salary for SE CHTR in 2010 is $33,173
The Average Australian income in Aug 09 is $61,328
Assuming that about 10% of our earnings are made up of allowances etc, you would need the base award salary of a DHC-8 Captain to make "average" Australian wages.
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Employers know this and they are out to exploit you, to the max
I reckon they will continue to do so forever whilst there is an endless stream of wannabes who will work for bugger all or close to it to fulfill the dream. The same dream we all had once and who can blame them. They are young. If you are trying to get from bare CPL to the first job most will do just about anything.
Right now there is a thread over in the wannabes forum outlining the experiences of some poor bloke in Maun who is trying to crack his first job.
He is living in a tent and doing the "rounds" each day to try and get employed on anything with wings. And he is not alone.There are heaps of others there trying to do the same.
In our neck of the woods countless wannabes do similar and head north each year trying to get a job. The cycle repeats year after year.
For the employers though it all comes down to supply and demand.
For as long as I can remember (40 years) the supply has nearly always exceeded demand. I can't see it changing any time soon so the chances of improving T & C's are, shall we say, suboptimal at best. But no harm in trying.
Righto,
You take your base rate,
there seem to be a couple of typos here, so you multiply it by 7.32% (eg for CIR) and get a yearly full time rate for your duties.
Yes, you divide this by 800, but casuals also have a 25% increase to cover entitlements that aren't otherwise given. Like any legal document, read it fully.
Then there is a yearly uniform allowance ($277 odd PA or $5 something per week), 1.8% loading for night ops (+ a transport allowance) and plenty of other small add ons.
You take your base rate,
there seem to be a couple of typos here, so you multiply it by 7.32% (eg for CIR) and get a yearly full time rate for your duties.
Divide by 800 for the hourly rate if your a casual
Then there is a yearly uniform allowance ($277 odd PA or $5 something per week), 1.8% loading for night ops (+ a transport allowance) and plenty of other small add ons.
Minimum Wage
Just out of interest, what was the MINIMUM wage in those years?
In 2006 it was increased to $511.86/week, or $26,616
From the Fair Work website the minimum wage is currently $543.78/week, or $28,276 pa.
So from 2003 to 2010 the minimum wage has increased $5843 or 26%.
In the same period, the base rate for GA pilots has increased $5863, or 21%.
Our AFAP dues hard at work there
Make it Happen
G'day
Just to clarify - all the add-ons are pretty much the same. The comparison of the base rate is just comparing apples with apples.
- how do you know what the "average" is for allowances? If that could be calculated fairly it would be built into the award too.
Some questions for discussion:
- at what point do we think a pilot should be earning the "average" wage? Grade 3 Instructor? Grade 1 Instructor? Chieftain driver? Regional FO? Regional Captain?
- What sort of leverage should our training and qualifications provide? Why? (good arguments here please no emotional or irrational rubbish)
- CAO48 and fatigue systems limit us to 45 hours of work per week and no overtime, at all, ever. According to the ABS, about 42% of Australian males work more than 40 hours per week and 30% work more than 50 hours.
Should we be compensated for this loss of earning potential?
I can work a 60 hour week in underground coal mines, get paid $100/day just to drive to work, and clear $3000/week. All training expenses are paid by the employer and uniform supplied. I can tell you that you don't need a Cert IV in coal mining to make that money - a Cert IV in black coal mining will get you over $1000/day.
Discuss....
Just to clarify - all the add-ons are pretty much the same. The comparison of the base rate is just comparing apples with apples.
- how do you know what the "average" is for allowances? If that could be calculated fairly it would be built into the award too.
Some questions for discussion:
- at what point do we think a pilot should be earning the "average" wage? Grade 3 Instructor? Grade 1 Instructor? Chieftain driver? Regional FO? Regional Captain?
- What sort of leverage should our training and qualifications provide? Why? (good arguments here please no emotional or irrational rubbish)
- CAO48 and fatigue systems limit us to 45 hours of work per week and no overtime, at all, ever. According to the ABS, about 42% of Australian males work more than 40 hours per week and 30% work more than 50 hours.
Should we be compensated for this loss of earning potential?
I can work a 60 hour week in underground coal mines, get paid $100/day just to drive to work, and clear $3000/week. All training expenses are paid by the employer and uniform supplied. I can tell you that you don't need a Cert IV in coal mining to make that money - a Cert IV in black coal mining will get you over $1000/day.
Discuss....
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 3rd Feb 2010 at 23:16.
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Your right Horatio regarding the AFAP dues, GA pilots do not have an effective lobby group or representative organisation to go into bat for us when it comes to our pay and conditions. What we do have however is PPRUNE it's not much but only some of us follow Paseopimp's lead and make a submission which costs us nothing, hurts no one and requires no more effort than typing a post in here we may be able to affect some change. I'm not sugesting we could get a big change but an extra couple a grand a year would be a nice start..
If you are motivated to work in this area please DO NOT rely on any assistance from the AFAP. You will be sorely dissapointed.
Make the effort and write individually or contact your local TWU branch.
Make the effort and write individually or contact your local TWU branch.
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Submissions to FWA
Just bear in mind that should anyone want to make a submission to FWA then they are assessing the need for a rise in the award, which is a minimum entitlement, and so comparisons with the average australian wage are possibly not fruitful.
I fully understand that lots of guys and girls in GA are being paid at (or below!) the award, hence in reality the average GA wage may be very close to the award. And of course we'd all like to be paid something closer to the average australian income (or more... now there's a pipe dream).
I think Horatio has the right idea in comparing the change in the min wage vs change in the GA award over time. This would be good justification for substantial rise. Anyone know where to find historical CPI figures? I'm pretty darn sure the award over time hasnt kept pace with the cost of living but we need to SHOW it.
I fully understand that lots of guys and girls in GA are being paid at (or below!) the award, hence in reality the average GA wage may be very close to the award. And of course we'd all like to be paid something closer to the average australian income (or more... now there's a pipe dream).
I think Horatio has the right idea in comparing the change in the min wage vs change in the GA award over time. This would be good justification for substantial rise. Anyone know where to find historical CPI figures? I'm pretty darn sure the award over time hasnt kept pace with the cost of living but we need to SHOW it.
Horatio,
Yeah mate, I know, I know....wasn't having a go at you.
Was just making sure everyone was aware of the casual rate differences.
(25% is a lot, I think you'll agree to be missing out on)
WRT variations, I'd suggest either a slightly higher rate to allow for night/uniform allowances etc (Maybe $2/hr depending on workload) or lodging a pay claim at the end of each period as required?
Yeah mate, I know, I know....wasn't having a go at you.
Was just making sure everyone was aware of the casual rate differences.
(25% is a lot, I think you'll agree to be missing out on)
WRT variations, I'd suggest either a slightly higher rate to allow for night/uniform allowances etc (Maybe $2/hr depending on workload) or lodging a pay claim at the end of each period as required?
Stats
The stats are all available on the Reserve Bank website - follow the "Statistics" link.
I have just downloaded a spreadsheet that indicates the CPI has risen 28.2% since March 2003.
Going from that figure, the base salary (and remembering all the others are leveraged off the base figure) should be:
($27,310 x 1.282) = $35,011 (plus allowances)
I have just downloaded a spreadsheet that indicates the CPI has risen 28.2% since March 2003.
Going from that figure, the base salary (and remembering all the others are leveraged off the base figure) should be:
($27,310 x 1.282) = $35,011 (plus allowances)
Horatio, thanks very much for your replys. Very useful.
I agree with some of the other posts that we should all (or as many as possible) make a submission individually - hopefully the more people who write in the more obvious the need for a rise, or a review at least, is.
Like others have said unfortunately the majority of GA operators pay the wage or slightly above if you're lucky - which is the BARE MINIMUM. If a review is conducted the award could only be adjusted up... it can't get much lower
I think, and i'm no expert, that the more statistical data, like past award and CPI figures etc the better.
Thanks again guys, and keep it coming - the more people who jump on board the better!
I agree with some of the other posts that we should all (or as many as possible) make a submission individually - hopefully the more people who write in the more obvious the need for a rise, or a review at least, is.
Like others have said unfortunately the majority of GA operators pay the wage or slightly above if you're lucky - which is the BARE MINIMUM. If a review is conducted the award could only be adjusted up... it can't get much lower
I think, and i'm no expert, that the more statistical data, like past award and CPI figures etc the better.
Thanks again guys, and keep it coming - the more people who jump on board the better!