All Australian GA pilots annual award review 2009-10
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And thankyou for proving my point.
Unionists shoving their noses into your workplace and rounding everybody up for a meeting is plain annoying,
I've had to deal with it in one workplace and just managed to avoid it in another (both non aviation). Not only did it point my nose further out of joint, it wasted time that I could have better used elsewhere.
My anti-union sentiment is not "typical of right wing pilots."
It's a personal belief based on proven ineffectiveness and the fact that unions shuffle money to the labor party. In effect if I was to become a union member I'd be giving free advertising money to the Labor Party, an organisation I do not support. I'm not some sort of radical fascist, but a centre-right supporter. When a union shows effectiveness (and I'm sorry but AFAP hasn't shown that in GA-certainly not in my time)
and when the laws are changed to prevent the shuffling of money to said ALP I may at one time in the future join a union.
So don't right me off, oh and FWIW I have no intention of joining an airline-I'd rather retire from aviation and have a decent career and do some weekend casual instructing than work for an airline.
How do I expect the wage to increase, that's not my problem
but I know of no other industry where those teaching the skills are paid so woefully.
Maybe the trick is for the CASA to force alignment to the NR Training programmes that some schools opt into.
Sure it changed the way you run business, but it gives you access to a whole heap of other options including government help for the student which should enable you to justify increased running costs.
And Finally, every pilot I know who was on an AWA was better off than on the hopelessly inadequate award. That applies outside of aviation too.
Can I ask how I proved your point????
If you dont want to attend then DONT....
My anti-union sentiment is not "typical of right wing pilots."
I know, the re are plenty of "right wing pilots" enjoying the benefits of what the Unions have achieved.
As discussed earlier the lack of AFAP members from GA pilots is probably the reason why the AFAP have been less effective in GA
And when the same laws prevent employers lobbying the Liberal party with cash to hold back conditions then things might also get better in GA
yes and you do your casual instructing on pittance whilst the professionals unit for better conditions... A Typical right wing selfish attitude.
Then please leave this discussion to the people who are actually working towards actually making things better
..again you have added nothing to the discussion
I think this is not in CASA's job description
And Finally, every pilot I know who was on an AWA was better off than on the hopelessly inadequate award. That applies outside of aviation too.
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Guys
Slow down a little. For starters the Federation is a pilot body run by pilots who employ staff to do the industrial job. We are not affiliated to the ALP or any political party nor do we send members money to any candidates. Equally we do not belong to the ACTU for much the same reasons.
The only outside body we are a mmber of is the International Federation of Air Pilots (IFALPA).
We do not and cannot demand you attend or join anything last i heard we are still a free country.
I and my colleagues attend some of the education institutions to give background on what the new pilots are getting themselves into and watch out for.
We are more than happy to attend any group meetings at any airport so that you can ask questions and get information on what we do as an organisation.
On another note we do not just do matters industrial; we are often involved in the regualtory process; we look after members in accident and incidents.
A members political beliefs are their own but i can tell you that past officers of this organisation have been members of the Liberals and Nationals as well as those with Labor. At the end of the day they had one defining interest as a pilot and that is looking after their fellow professional pilots.
Statistics show that those on union collective/Enterprise Agreements are always well in advance of the parent Award or previuosly AWA's
On a final note pilots wanting to improve things usually get together discuss a course of action and work as a team. Its called a UNION.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Slow down a little. For starters the Federation is a pilot body run by pilots who employ staff to do the industrial job. We are not affiliated to the ALP or any political party nor do we send members money to any candidates. Equally we do not belong to the ACTU for much the same reasons.
The only outside body we are a mmber of is the International Federation of Air Pilots (IFALPA).
We do not and cannot demand you attend or join anything last i heard we are still a free country.
I and my colleagues attend some of the education institutions to give background on what the new pilots are getting themselves into and watch out for.
We are more than happy to attend any group meetings at any airport so that you can ask questions and get information on what we do as an organisation.
On another note we do not just do matters industrial; we are often involved in the regualtory process; we look after members in accident and incidents.
A members political beliefs are their own but i can tell you that past officers of this organisation have been members of the Liberals and Nationals as well as those with Labor. At the end of the day they had one defining interest as a pilot and that is looking after their fellow professional pilots.
Statistics show that those on union collective/Enterprise Agreements are always well in advance of the parent Award or previuosly AWA's
On a final note pilots wanting to improve things usually get together discuss a course of action and work as a team. Its called a UNION.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Can I ask Lawrie why the AFAP who are the "guardians" of the GA award have not fought to increase it to reasonably levels... Why is it that pilots have to lobby the FWA??? why isn't the AFAP more active in Lobbying the FWA for better conditions???
Why are other industries Unions better at increasing pay??? why is the award per hour pay of a Bar tender higher than a Professional flight instructor or charter pilot?
I also ask what do you suggest pilots do to increase their conditions???
Should we continue to rely on the AFAP??? would it be fair to say the AFAP has had it's chance for over 20 years to increase conditions but have failed... would it be better that there was a separate Union representing GA???
Would we have more power being involved with a Union that is a member of the ACTU???
Charlie,
I agree with many of your points, it seems that AFAP has had a long time to try to increase the award for - it's still pretty low, so maybe they have failed. I agree that AFAP could be more active in persuing an Award increase
However...
Do you really think starting another union separately for GA would work? Who is going to start it? Have a chat to some of your collegues and see how much unity there is?, think about trying to harness all this ambivilance and then trying to push for more money. This is one of the issues with GA and probably one of the reasons why the award is quite low. So many pilots employed in GA don't care - they bitch and moan about it at work but when it comes time to change anything there's no guts for a fight.
I don't know - but i imagine that this goes for AFAP also. It is member driven - if members who are employed in GA don't ask or push AFAP to persue more money for them chances are it won't happen. If all the pilots employed in GA joined a more "aggressive" union, then sat around and weren't involved in it and did nothing other than moan to themselves about how bad they are paid do you really think anything would change?
What may be useful is getting a GA representative on the board of AFAP so there is a voice to call for change within our section of the industry - the majority of the board/directors/whatever seem to come from regionals or airlines, i don't think i've seen any instructors or charter pilots try to get elected.
I have found AFAP to be very helpful over the last couple of weeks as I have sought more information regarding the Award review and enterprise bargaining process. However i have had to go to them and ask for the information.
As others have said it is a union... it isn't a separate or a fragment. If we want things to change then we should try and stick with what we've got - an GET INVOLVED!!
rant over.....
I agree with many of your points, it seems that AFAP has had a long time to try to increase the award for - it's still pretty low, so maybe they have failed. I agree that AFAP could be more active in persuing an Award increase
However...
Do you really think starting another union separately for GA would work? Who is going to start it? Have a chat to some of your collegues and see how much unity there is?, think about trying to harness all this ambivilance and then trying to push for more money. This is one of the issues with GA and probably one of the reasons why the award is quite low. So many pilots employed in GA don't care - they bitch and moan about it at work but when it comes time to change anything there's no guts for a fight.
I don't know - but i imagine that this goes for AFAP also. It is member driven - if members who are employed in GA don't ask or push AFAP to persue more money for them chances are it won't happen. If all the pilots employed in GA joined a more "aggressive" union, then sat around and weren't involved in it and did nothing other than moan to themselves about how bad they are paid do you really think anything would change?
What may be useful is getting a GA representative on the board of AFAP so there is a voice to call for change within our section of the industry - the majority of the board/directors/whatever seem to come from regionals or airlines, i don't think i've seen any instructors or charter pilots try to get elected.
I have found AFAP to be very helpful over the last couple of weeks as I have sought more information regarding the Award review and enterprise bargaining process. However i have had to go to them and ask for the information.
As others have said it is a union... it isn't a separate or a fragment. If we want things to change then we should try and stick with what we've got - an GET INVOLVED!!
rant over.....
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ello,
problem is folks, CASA is run by uni graduates and x pols who want govenment work, long careers and good pensions! FAA ( for example) is run by pilots, pilots and a few more pilots! end result? FAA look after pilots in USA, CASA screw over pilots in australia and cHarge you administration fees for the priv...! AFAP god bless them dance for joy when tossed a few scraps fOr the hard working GA pilot but the end of the day, what you got? an extra 299 for uniform of which 298 will be spent renewing you ASIc ( thatll never be checked ) and medical! did anybody notice the advertisement for CASA benifit inspectors? $135,000 PA???????????
VOICES LOUD MAKE PILOTS PROUD!!! BE COUNTED!!
problem is folks, CASA is run by uni graduates and x pols who want govenment work, long careers and good pensions! FAA ( for example) is run by pilots, pilots and a few more pilots! end result? FAA look after pilots in USA, CASA screw over pilots in australia and cHarge you administration fees for the priv...! AFAP god bless them dance for joy when tossed a few scraps fOr the hard working GA pilot but the end of the day, what you got? an extra 299 for uniform of which 298 will be spent renewing you ASIc ( thatll never be checked ) and medical! did anybody notice the advertisement for CASA benifit inspectors? $135,000 PA???????????
VOICES LOUD MAKE PILOTS PROUD!!! BE COUNTED!!
Scottie,
Can you please explain what the connection is between CASA and pilot wages? Or, for that matter, the FAA and pilot wages in the USA?
...and come to think of it perhaps you can tell us if pilot wages in the USA are better than here?
Can you please explain what the connection is between CASA and pilot wages? Or, for that matter, the FAA and pilot wages in the USA?
...and come to think of it perhaps you can tell us if pilot wages in the USA are better than here?
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The only thing governs pilot wages and conditions is supply and demand. No different to any other job or business enterprise. Regional pilots in the USA have some of the worst working conditions for so-called professionals in the western world. Because at any one time there are hundreds if not thousands of pilots on furlough and because it is still relatively cheap to learn to fly in the USA. Wages here are not good but at least the duty time rules are better and we all get a whole lot more vacation time.
Despite all the hype about a looming shortage, the shortages will be in places many pilots don't want to work, so the domestic scene here like in the USA won't improve much whatever noise we make. All we can do is chip away, and flex a bit more muscle during any temporary shortages.
Despite all the hype about a looming shortage, the shortages will be in places many pilots don't want to work, so the domestic scene here like in the USA won't improve much whatever noise we make. All we can do is chip away, and flex a bit more muscle during any temporary shortages.
The award was increased from the 1st of July.
I think it was about a $1300 rise to the base salary for all the weight categories, which then results in slight increases for allowances for instructing/MECIR etc.
It's only a baby step, i think its about 4% for those on the lowest base wage, but it's better than nothing.
I think it was about a $1300 rise to the base salary for all the weight categories, which then results in slight increases for allowances for instructing/MECIR etc.
It's only a baby step, i think its about 4% for those on the lowest base wage, but it's better than nothing.
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well, everyone reading the comments about pay, I spent 7 years in Aviation 2 of those as a Chief Pilot and CFI for 47,000PA back in 1998. Then I left and worked for a small regional airline as an FO 36 seater for 32,000PA ( cRAZY ) Just for the experience. Now I believe CFIs are getting paid about 90 - 110PA in 2011 how things have changed.
I left the industry back in 2002 because of poor operators, poor pay, poor maintemance, I became disalussioned with the whole industry. Started working for the automotive industry as a supervisor earning 85000 PA.
I love flying, but i AINT GOING TO DO IT FOR NOTHING ANYMORE.
IM BEHIND YOU ALL THE WAY.
Pilots are professional, it takes a lot of time and money to get you where you need to be, there is a lot at stake, your profession, other peoples lives and so on.
I left the industry back in 2002 because of poor operators, poor pay, poor maintemance, I became disalussioned with the whole industry. Started working for the automotive industry as a supervisor earning 85000 PA.
I love flying, but i AINT GOING TO DO IT FOR NOTHING ANYMORE.
IM BEHIND YOU ALL THE WAY.
Pilots are professional, it takes a lot of time and money to get you where you need to be, there is a lot at stake, your profession, other peoples lives and so on.
