All Australian GA pilots annual award review 2009-10
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CP:
I have used both organisations in the last 3 months.
AAC and RQAC rates quoted are correct (non-member) walk-in solo and dual rates.
RQAC:
GST is extra. i.e $208 solo plus GST.
However, if you pay $308 first year joining fee, the C152 solo rental rate drops to $173 per hour plus GST.
Add $99 for the Instructor. (plus GST).
Call RQAC to confirm: 07 32753244
I have used both organisations in the last 3 months.
AAC and RQAC rates quoted are correct (non-member) walk-in solo and dual rates.
RQAC:
GST is extra. i.e $208 solo plus GST.
However, if you pay $308 first year joining fee, the C152 solo rental rate drops to $173 per hour plus GST.
Add $99 for the Instructor. (plus GST).
Call RQAC to confirm: 07 32753244
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Thanks RFG, Did that 2 years ago, am also in discussions with local member. 
If you want to pay $40 per hour go right ahead, NZ is just over the ocean .
I have seen the results of their instructor rating couse and take it from me $40 an hour is probably about right.
If you want to pay $40 per hour go right ahead, NZ is just over the ocean .
I have seen the results of their instructor rating couse and take it from me $40 an hour is probably about right.
Last edited by Zoomy; 8th Feb 2010 at 10:36.
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[QUOTE]I have seen the results of their instructor rating couse and take it from me $40 an is probably about right.[QUOTE]
Have you actually gone through a Instructor Rating course and flight test in NZ or just seen Kiwi instructors who have come over to Australia and just started work? Mate, you gotta remember these guys have just moved over and the rules and procedures are different. It takes a little time for everyone to adjust
Mate, I do think the Instructor Rating flight test in NZ is a lot harder than Auz, especially the Grade 1 flight tests (Category A) - which include aerobatic instruction and night instruction.
In regards to the wages, I am employed on a casual basis and only get paid when I fly. It's quite sad that when I am not flying, I am still doing work - progress sheets, looking after students... But, I don't get paid for that.
Have you actually gone through a Instructor Rating course and flight test in NZ or just seen Kiwi instructors who have come over to Australia and just started work? Mate, you gotta remember these guys have just moved over and the rules and procedures are different. It takes a little time for everyone to adjust
Mate, I do think the Instructor Rating flight test in NZ is a lot harder than Auz, especially the Grade 1 flight tests (Category A) - which include aerobatic instruction and night instruction.
In regards to the wages, I am employed on a casual basis and only get paid when I fly. It's quite sad that when I am not flying, I am still doing work - progress sheets, looking after students... But, I don't get paid for that.
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No use complaining here "mate" .
But thanks for bringing to light how poor the conditions are.
You either simply blame the people before you for making the conditions they way they are today.... or you can do something about it..... There is a reason why you NZ pilots get paid crap even when you finally "make it to those poor paying jobs like Pacblue. Jetconnect and JetstarNZ...,,,, it's because you are willing to work for crap from the start and and are happy to take it up the clacker...
Seriously grow some balls and stand up for what you deserve.
But thanks for bringing to light how poor the conditions are.
You either simply blame the people before you for making the conditions they way they are today.... or you can do something about it..... There is a reason why you NZ pilots get paid crap even when you finally "make it to those poor paying jobs like Pacblue. Jetconnect and JetstarNZ...,,,, it's because you are willing to work for crap from the start and and are happy to take it up the clacker...
Seriously grow some balls and stand up for what you deserve.
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Forget aviation, consider plumbing !
The idea that if instructors and pilots get paid more, less people will be able to afford it could have a reverse affect. Perhaps, if the industry was more appealing, it could attract more people to the industry? Just a thought.
Regardless, I actually had a plumber do 3 hours of work for me the other day. He was installing a dishwasher, sink plumbing and a gas cook top. It cost me $600. 3 Hours work ! (I supplied the parts too)
He told me that to become a licensed plumber, you need to do 6 years, and made a joke as to that was why he could charge like a doctor.
Well... I finished my training in 2003, my first job in May 04, Ive been working for 6 years in the industry and working as a Grade 1. 4 Instrument Renewals, 2000 hours. Ive never earnt more then $47K. (not to mention I earnt less then 20k the first several years as an instructor)
Why would anyone pay out $60 000 for pilot training if you could earn twice p.a. (very easily) being a plumber !?
The industry needs to change, and having pilots donate their time to hour accumulation only feeds the greedy at the top. I think we all need a little more pride. No one can fly planes without pilots.
Regardless, I actually had a plumber do 3 hours of work for me the other day. He was installing a dishwasher, sink plumbing and a gas cook top. It cost me $600. 3 Hours work ! (I supplied the parts too)
He told me that to become a licensed plumber, you need to do 6 years, and made a joke as to that was why he could charge like a doctor.
Well... I finished my training in 2003, my first job in May 04, Ive been working for 6 years in the industry and working as a Grade 1. 4 Instrument Renewals, 2000 hours. Ive never earnt more then $47K. (not to mention I earnt less then 20k the first several years as an instructor)
Why would anyone pay out $60 000 for pilot training if you could earn twice p.a. (very easily) being a plumber !?
The industry needs to change, and having pilots donate their time to hour accumulation only feeds the greedy at the top. I think we all need a little more pride. No one can fly planes without pilots.
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Modern Award and the process
Due to some misunderstandings about the processes we publish the following as an example of what needs to be considered.
The annual wage review process has generally delivered wage increases to all federal awards expressed as a percentage or flat dollar amount. For example, the 2008 review resulted in a $21.66 per week wage increase across all awards.
The annual wage review process is not designed to grant different wage increases to specific awards (such as the Air Pilots Award). Rather, award wages are increased by the same amount across the board.
As the annual wage review process does not empower Fair Work Australia to make specific increases for pilots, the AFAP does not intend to make submissions to the tribunal.
Recent changes introduced under the Fair Work Act have strengthened employee rights to negotiate enterprise (collective) agreements. The reality is that better wages and conditions for pilots are achieved through this process. As such, the AFAP will continue to seek to improve pilot wages through the negotiation of enterprise agreements.
In future Fair Work Australia will implement a timetable to review the content of modern awards. The AFAP will be actively involved in this process. It needs to be remembered that the Federation is the only pilot body that actively pursues the Award reviews and has done so since the creation of Awards. The AFAP was the union which initiated award coverage in the first place and will continue to fight on for General Aviation as well as other sectors in years to come.
Air Pilots Award
Salaries contained in the Air Pilots Award 2010 are based on a 38 hour working week. Pilots wanting to work beyond 38 hours may seek additional remuneration through the terms of an individual flexibility agreement or an enterprise agreement. The AFAP is available to assist members in this process.
If you wish to proceed with a submission to the wage review panel I suggest you refer to previous submissions made by the Australian Council of Trade Unions as a guide.
I have provided a link below to the ACTU’s 2009 submissions as an example:
http://www.fairpay.gov.au/NR/rdonlyr...ssion_2009.pdf
It is not as simple as writing a letter to FWA to get a specific wage increase please also note that whilst we are so busy cutting each others throats the companies get on with the job. It is entirely in your hands.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
The annual wage review process has generally delivered wage increases to all federal awards expressed as a percentage or flat dollar amount. For example, the 2008 review resulted in a $21.66 per week wage increase across all awards.
The annual wage review process is not designed to grant different wage increases to specific awards (such as the Air Pilots Award). Rather, award wages are increased by the same amount across the board.
As the annual wage review process does not empower Fair Work Australia to make specific increases for pilots, the AFAP does not intend to make submissions to the tribunal.
Recent changes introduced under the Fair Work Act have strengthened employee rights to negotiate enterprise (collective) agreements. The reality is that better wages and conditions for pilots are achieved through this process. As such, the AFAP will continue to seek to improve pilot wages through the negotiation of enterprise agreements.
In future Fair Work Australia will implement a timetable to review the content of modern awards. The AFAP will be actively involved in this process. It needs to be remembered that the Federation is the only pilot body that actively pursues the Award reviews and has done so since the creation of Awards. The AFAP was the union which initiated award coverage in the first place and will continue to fight on for General Aviation as well as other sectors in years to come.
Air Pilots Award
Salaries contained in the Air Pilots Award 2010 are based on a 38 hour working week. Pilots wanting to work beyond 38 hours may seek additional remuneration through the terms of an individual flexibility agreement or an enterprise agreement. The AFAP is available to assist members in this process.
If you wish to proceed with a submission to the wage review panel I suggest you refer to previous submissions made by the Australian Council of Trade Unions as a guide.
I have provided a link below to the ACTU’s 2009 submissions as an example:
http://www.fairpay.gov.au/NR/rdonlyr...ssion_2009.pdf
It is not as simple as writing a letter to FWA to get a specific wage increase please also note that whilst we are so busy cutting each others throats the companies get on with the job. It is entirely in your hands.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
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Thanks for taking the time to add to this Thread Lawrie.
I would like to ask you if you could compare the increase in the Pilots Award wages compared to say a teachers award wage or a Nurses award wage since the 80's.
I would guess that the conditions of teachers and nurses have increased substantially more over the last 25 years then that of the Pilots award.
I would also ask how much the Pilots award has increased due to other increased expenses such as medical costs, document costs and the increase cost in obtaining a licence. Ie. Licence test fees, Exam fees...etc.. etc.. Basically nothing has been adjusted to the Award to cover these added expenses. I ask why?
I also ask why it is a flat dollar amount.... and why pilots that fly bigger planes or have higher qualifications receive the same flat rate... in-affect they are taking a percentage decrease in pay.
It seems the process that the AFAP uses to increase the Award for all pilots is simply except what the FWA seems fit for ALL other awards. I for one regard our PROFESSION a little higher than a person who works in the hospitality industry or cleaning industry and they seem to receive the SAME increases.... Is there something wrong here?
I suppose the answer lies in where should a a Flying Instructor sit in the pecking order? Should a grade 3 flight instructor get paid less than the person at the front desk answering the phone who is covered by an award that rewards them more?.... is there something wrong with this.
As a representative of the AFAP and a union delegate that should be working for increasing pilots condition do you think that " there is something wrong here?
I for one do and I ask you how we should go about fixing this situation of poor pay and conditions of our profession? Is the AFAP willing to lobby for us or is this something that "we" have lobby for our selves? if so then what is your role?
Seeing that the APAP has traditionally negotiated the GA AWARD would it be fair to say that our conditions have deteriorated since the 80's ... ie CPI and the added costs as mentioned above?
When a fully qualified Flight instructor gets paid $35,000 a year and a bus driver earns $55,000 a year then there is something seriously wrong.
PS. no offence to bus drivers, but you guys are just over paid Taxi drivers.
Looking forward to your reply Lawrie...
I would like to ask you if you could compare the increase in the Pilots Award wages compared to say a teachers award wage or a Nurses award wage since the 80's.
I would guess that the conditions of teachers and nurses have increased substantially more over the last 25 years then that of the Pilots award.
I would also ask how much the Pilots award has increased due to other increased expenses such as medical costs, document costs and the increase cost in obtaining a licence. Ie. Licence test fees, Exam fees...etc.. etc.. Basically nothing has been adjusted to the Award to cover these added expenses. I ask why?
I also ask why it is a flat dollar amount.... and why pilots that fly bigger planes or have higher qualifications receive the same flat rate... in-affect they are taking a percentage decrease in pay.
It seems the process that the AFAP uses to increase the Award for all pilots is simply except what the FWA seems fit for ALL other awards. I for one regard our PROFESSION a little higher than a person who works in the hospitality industry or cleaning industry and they seem to receive the SAME increases.... Is there something wrong here?
I suppose the answer lies in where should a a Flying Instructor sit in the pecking order? Should a grade 3 flight instructor get paid less than the person at the front desk answering the phone who is covered by an award that rewards them more?.... is there something wrong with this.
As a representative of the AFAP and a union delegate that should be working for increasing pilots condition do you think that " there is something wrong here?
I for one do and I ask you how we should go about fixing this situation of poor pay and conditions of our profession? Is the AFAP willing to lobby for us or is this something that "we" have lobby for our selves? if so then what is your role?
Seeing that the APAP has traditionally negotiated the GA AWARD would it be fair to say that our conditions have deteriorated since the 80's ... ie CPI and the added costs as mentioned above?
When a fully qualified Flight instructor gets paid $35,000 a year and a bus driver earns $55,000 a year then there is something seriously wrong.
PS. no offence to bus drivers, but you guys are just over paid Taxi drivers.
Looking forward to your reply Lawrie...
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The idea that if instructors and pilots get paid more, less people will be able to afford it could have a reverse affect. Perhaps, if the industry was more appealing, it could attract more people to the industry? Just a thought.
Regardless, I actually had a plumber do 3 hours of work for me the other day. He was installing a dishwasher, sink plumbing and a gas cook top. It cost me $600. 3 Hours work ! (I supplied the parts too)
He told me that to become a licensed plumber, you need to do 6 years, and made a joke as to that was why he could charge like a doctor.
Well... I finished my training in 2003, my first job in May 04, Ive been working for 6 years in the industry and working as a Grade 1. 4 Instrument Renewals, 2000 hours. Ive never earnt more then $47K. (not to mention I earnt less then 20k the first several years as an instructor)
Why would anyone pay out $60 000 for pilot training if you could earn twice p.a. (very easily) being a plumber !?
The industry needs to change, and having pilots donate their time to hour accumulation only feeds the greedy at the top. I think we all need a little more pride. No one can fly planes without pilots.
Regardless, I actually had a plumber do 3 hours of work for me the other day. He was installing a dishwasher, sink plumbing and a gas cook top. It cost me $600. 3 Hours work ! (I supplied the parts too)
He told me that to become a licensed plumber, you need to do 6 years, and made a joke as to that was why he could charge like a doctor.
Well... I finished my training in 2003, my first job in May 04, Ive been working for 6 years in the industry and working as a Grade 1. 4 Instrument Renewals, 2000 hours. Ive never earnt more then $47K. (not to mention I earnt less then 20k the first several years as an instructor)
Why would anyone pay out $60 000 for pilot training if you could earn twice p.a. (very easily) being a plumber !?
The industry needs to change, and having pilots donate their time to hour accumulation only feeds the greedy at the top. I think we all need a little more pride. No one can fly planes without pilots.
The industry has supported huge increases in other costs like Airport charges, maintenance and of course fuel. Yet still people learn to fly.
There is no reason why the industry cant support an instructor getting paid the average wage which is ow over 55k a year. For to long our industry has talked it's value down... It's time we grew some balls and got what we deserve.
A driving Instructor gets paid more... WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A trainee train driver or a Tram driver gets paid more whilst they under go training(usually 12 months) then a self funded Qualified flight instructor....WHY!!!!!!!!!!
Is it because their union actually fights for their increases???
Is there something wrong here?????? I think so...
What is wrong here is that most people who want to be pilots initially want to do it to stroke their own egoes, pull chicks, or have a thrill. Like any love affair the thrill soon wears off, and hopefully with maturity ego is brought under control - or at least cleverly concealed.
But most chicks will still dig pilots before plumbers (silly girls, if only they realised where their future lay....). But so far I have yet to meet a pilot who would give up flying to put his hands down someone's blocked bog. 50 bucks an hour to fly an aeroplane against 200 to clear stuck turds ?Aeroplanes 1; turds nil.
And hey, don't shoot the messenger.
But most chicks will still dig pilots before plumbers (silly girls, if only they realised where their future lay....). But so far I have yet to meet a pilot who would give up flying to put his hands down someone's blocked bog. 50 bucks an hour to fly an aeroplane against 200 to clear stuck turds ?Aeroplanes 1; turds nil.
And hey, don't shoot the messenger.
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Charlie
Lets begin with some fundamental facts Comparative wage arguments were removed by the courts in the 80’s.
I agree that certain groups have moved their wage groupings in advance of ours you note that teachers, nurses, police, firies etc... are predominately the State public service areas as against us in private industry with a multitude of employers.
The Federation has many times run cases for increases in allowances and/or salary this occurred often using ex GA now Airline pilots to give evidence on the issues confronting our GA membership.
The Legislation has also often restricted us as well in that you were not able to run work value cases separately for a number of periods and further when you could it was so constrained on the measurements the margin was not significant.
As an example when the Awards were ‘stripped back’ we had to measure a pilot as against a trade level in the Metals Award. We argued that you should not be pegged at was C10 but at C7 which was a specialist trades level. We were opposed by the employer groups and the measurement came through at C10 trades level.
As an industry we do not show up in the standard qualification measurement used as greater than a trade and currently still do not show ratings/licences as formal qualifications (education standard which in my view ought to at least be tertiary). It is this basis that will improve the argument for greater return on the pilot investment in your own education which is never acknowledged by employers/Governments/Media/public.
We as a body spend a lot of time and resources on that argument which often falls on deaf ears.
Back to the Union: the body is a pilots organisation it is up to pilots to play a role not for me as an employee to set the agenda. If pilots want change or a specific policy get off your backside and play a part in the Branch or Council you belong to. An effective union is one that is made up of a group of united pilots going in one direction not a bunch of splinters shooting off at random. There are times when not everybody will agree on a direction but you have to compromise to get a better outcome. As history has shown whilst we fight each other we leave the boss alone (and that is often a disaster).
The Federation is the only pilots body in the country that does provide for input totally as professional pilots whether just starting out or as a long term airline member. We do not set our overall agenda based on the Company we work for it is about time pilots got back together and realised the challenge is not who is better but working together to get a better overall outcome for all professional pilots.
Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Lets begin with some fundamental facts Comparative wage arguments were removed by the courts in the 80’s.
I agree that certain groups have moved their wage groupings in advance of ours you note that teachers, nurses, police, firies etc... are predominately the State public service areas as against us in private industry with a multitude of employers.
The Federation has many times run cases for increases in allowances and/or salary this occurred often using ex GA now Airline pilots to give evidence on the issues confronting our GA membership.
The Legislation has also often restricted us as well in that you were not able to run work value cases separately for a number of periods and further when you could it was so constrained on the measurements the margin was not significant.
As an example when the Awards were ‘stripped back’ we had to measure a pilot as against a trade level in the Metals Award. We argued that you should not be pegged at was C10 but at C7 which was a specialist trades level. We were opposed by the employer groups and the measurement came through at C10 trades level.
As an industry we do not show up in the standard qualification measurement used as greater than a trade and currently still do not show ratings/licences as formal qualifications (education standard which in my view ought to at least be tertiary). It is this basis that will improve the argument for greater return on the pilot investment in your own education which is never acknowledged by employers/Governments/Media/public.
We as a body spend a lot of time and resources on that argument which often falls on deaf ears.
Back to the Union: the body is a pilots organisation it is up to pilots to play a role not for me as an employee to set the agenda. If pilots want change or a specific policy get off your backside and play a part in the Branch or Council you belong to. An effective union is one that is made up of a group of united pilots going in one direction not a bunch of splinters shooting off at random. There are times when not everybody will agree on a direction but you have to compromise to get a better outcome. As history has shown whilst we fight each other we leave the boss alone (and that is often a disaster).
The Federation is the only pilots body in the country that does provide for input totally as professional pilots whether just starting out or as a long term airline member. We do not set our overall agenda based on the Company we work for it is about time pilots got back together and realised the challenge is not who is better but working together to get a better overall outcome for all professional pilots.
Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
"Mach" I had to have a laugh at yr comments re pilots pulling chicks. As silly as that sounds me 'tinks that still applies in some young guys heads. Go to a bar & tell a chick that yr a plumber, observe reaction (the sniffing action of one said girl says it all!). Same bar same chick tell her yr a pilot, use protection.................I rest my case! Oh BTW as pilots we must have 2 bank accounts all thru life, one 'she' doesn't know about or her lawyer for that matter
Simply put aviation is a 'game' for those that love to fly & have a real passion for it, remuneration although obviously needed isn't the main reason as to why most pilots want to fly in the first place. Of course there is the exception to the rule there with no doubt some training organizations "selling" off that there's big money to be had at the top of the tree......well perhaps but the top of the tree is getting pretty thin money wise & job security wise but the big shiny jet still 'reflects' hope to those genuine star-y eyed kids:-).
We have a land mass similar to the States where air travel is the only way to get around in a timely manor, we have approx 1/12th of their population hence a lot less money to go around even tax wise, you go figure it out!
Am glad I am at the other end of my flying career, I'd hate to be young now & trying to get thru it all although if I only knew what I know now standing at the alter (of sacrifice).
Wmk2
Oh BTW as pilots we must have 2 bank accounts all thru life, one 'she' doesn't know about or her lawyer for that matterSimply put aviation is a 'game' for those that love to fly & have a real passion for it, remuneration although obviously needed isn't the main reason as to why most pilots want to fly in the first place. Of course there is the exception to the rule there with no doubt some training organizations "selling" off that there's big money to be had at the top of the tree......well perhaps but the top of the tree is getting pretty thin money wise & job security wise but the big shiny jet still 'reflects' hope to those genuine star-y eyed kids:-).
We have a land mass similar to the States where air travel is the only way to get around in a timely manor, we have approx 1/12th of their population hence a lot less money to go around even tax wise, you go figure it out!
Am glad I am at the other end of my flying career, I'd hate to be young now & trying to get thru it all although if I only knew what I know now standing at the alter (of sacrifice)
.Wmk2
Thanks
G'day Laurie,
Thakns very much for taking the time to post and provide some facts re AFAP and the award. It seems that the FWA submission may not be the way to go, at least not to provide a substantial increase in the award.
I think most agree that the $34000 provided for in the award is pretty low and should be increased. If it isn't possible through a award review what would be the best way to see an increase?
I have been told that Enterprise agreements are the best way to argue for more money etc, however there is a perception amongst pilots, me included, that to go to our employer and start pushing for more money is like putting our necks on the chopping block and may curtail our progression in the industry. Rightly or wrongly this perception stops pilots from going through this process, so we, as other have said, keep our mouths shut and keep looking for the next job - and the cylce repeats. Due to this reluctance to push for EBA's the award unfortunately remains what most pilots, especially in GA/instructing get paid.
You mention in one of your posts about comparing pilots to tradies, at least in terms of qualifications, and that this has a bearing on award setting - and that your arguements re award increases have fallen on deaf ears - Whose ears? Are they ears that we, as individual pilots, could be shouting into to be heard? These may seem like stupid questions, but my understanding of industrial relations is pretty poor.
The idea that just because our job is 'fun' should somehow allow us to be poorly paid is rediculous. Thats what our employers seem to rely on. I'm sure other people have 'fun' at work and do not have to endure salarys in the 30 grand range.
Anyway guys, thanks for the clean'ish discussion, it's all good stuff!
Thakns very much for taking the time to post and provide some facts re AFAP and the award. It seems that the FWA submission may not be the way to go, at least not to provide a substantial increase in the award.
I think most agree that the $34000 provided for in the award is pretty low and should be increased. If it isn't possible through a award review what would be the best way to see an increase?
I have been told that Enterprise agreements are the best way to argue for more money etc, however there is a perception amongst pilots, me included, that to go to our employer and start pushing for more money is like putting our necks on the chopping block and may curtail our progression in the industry. Rightly or wrongly this perception stops pilots from going through this process, so we, as other have said, keep our mouths shut and keep looking for the next job - and the cylce repeats. Due to this reluctance to push for EBA's the award unfortunately remains what most pilots, especially in GA/instructing get paid.
You mention in one of your posts about comparing pilots to tradies, at least in terms of qualifications, and that this has a bearing on award setting - and that your arguements re award increases have fallen on deaf ears - Whose ears? Are they ears that we, as individual pilots, could be shouting into to be heard? These may seem like stupid questions, but my understanding of industrial relations is pretty poor.
The idea that just because our job is 'fun' should somehow allow us to be poorly paid is rediculous. Thats what our employers seem to rely on. I'm sure other people have 'fun' at work and do not have to endure salarys in the 30 grand range.
Anyway guys, thanks for the clean'ish discussion, it's all good stuff!
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Again thanks Lawrie for your explanation. I have rang the AFAP in the past and the person I spoke to at the time had little or no knowledge of the history of the award. Your insight has has helped me understand how the award has come about and Knowing now that the Award is pegged to a specialist trade level C10 (doesn't mean much to me) atleast allows us to argue why we should get paid more.
The question is should we get paid more? and I suppose the answer lies in the arguments that us as pilots can use to compare us to a C10 level trade specialist.
I do think the Federation should be more active in GA. It seems the AFAP is membership driven, and will act on the members behalf which is fair enough. Having a relative low membership rate in GA seems to be an excuse not to have a strong presence in GA. I've always felt that the AFAP is more interested in it's members in the higher earning type jobs and uses it's resource to benefit them. Again fair enough.
Having spent a fair bit of time in GA in the past though , I never once met a AFAP delegate. Never was I approached to join or never was I invited to a seminar or meeting explaining the benefits of being in the Federation.
I dare say a high proportion of pilots only join when they are required to be in an EBA or such.... or to get loss of licence.
I really believe that the AFAP should have a stronger presence in GA and flying schools and educate new commercial pilots in the importance of being a member.
Having a delegate do a road show and visiting airports and talking to pilots for the purpose of educating them on the importance of AFAP membership would be a great way to increase membership, especially if it included talks from AFAP members that are Airline pilots or Aeromed pilots.
Also reducing membership costs for low paid pilots and maybe wavering the initial joining few to Pilots that Join within 12 months of gaining there commercial.
All in all I feel that the AFAP could do alot more self promotion, and should do more to encourage pilots in GA to become members.
The question is should we get paid more? and I suppose the answer lies in the arguments that us as pilots can use to compare us to a C10 level trade specialist.
I do think the Federation should be more active in GA. It seems the AFAP is membership driven, and will act on the members behalf which is fair enough. Having a relative low membership rate in GA seems to be an excuse not to have a strong presence in GA. I've always felt that the AFAP is more interested in it's members in the higher earning type jobs and uses it's resource to benefit them. Again fair enough.
Having spent a fair bit of time in GA in the past though , I never once met a AFAP delegate. Never was I approached to join or never was I invited to a seminar or meeting explaining the benefits of being in the Federation.
I dare say a high proportion of pilots only join when they are required to be in an EBA or such.... or to get loss of licence.
I really believe that the AFAP should have a stronger presence in GA and flying schools and educate new commercial pilots in the importance of being a member.
Having a delegate do a road show and visiting airports and talking to pilots for the purpose of educating them on the importance of AFAP membership would be a great way to increase membership, especially if it included talks from AFAP members that are Airline pilots or Aeromed pilots.
Also reducing membership costs for low paid pilots and maybe wavering the initial joining few to Pilots that Join within 12 months of gaining there commercial.
All in all I feel that the AFAP could do alot more self promotion, and should do more to encourage pilots in GA to become members.
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Having a delegate do a road show and visiting airports and talking to pilots for the purpose of educating them on the importance of AFAP membership would be a great way to increase membership, especially if it included talks from AFAP members that are Airline pilots or Aeromed pilots.
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Bit harsh on the kiwis here??
Not too sure what to make of the somewhat barbed 'kiwi's get paid peanuts because they don't do anything about it' etc...We don't have an award system. And our minimum wage is a helluvalot lower..(oh i forgot...we're getting an extra 25 cents an hour starting sometime this year...). 12.75 isn't very much.
But then we don't have the options fresh Aussie CPLs do. There's no Broome or NT here. Either you know someone, you start instructing, or you stack shelves. So we work for peanuts. If you've got a solution RE: getting paid what we're worth, please share.
In terms of AFAP...I can't see anyone here singing their praises and you guys are better off than we are! ALPA (nz) is probably worse. If they recognized their responsibility towards NZ GA pilots they 'might' do something about it (and I can safely say most NZ GA pilots are not happy with their payscales). In the meantime, as I've just discovered: the award for a grade 3 in Oz is more than what most B-cats (grade 2) make in NZ. Even if they're training Multi IFR students.
I'm all ears for solutions...then again perhaps I'm being a bit hasty..I think I'm the first NZer to say 'yep, we're getting a raw deal on this side of the ditch...' Speak up fellas
But then we don't have the options fresh Aussie CPLs do. There's no Broome or NT here. Either you know someone, you start instructing, or you stack shelves. So we work for peanuts. If you've got a solution RE: getting paid what we're worth, please share.
In terms of AFAP...I can't see anyone here singing their praises and you guys are better off than we are! ALPA (nz) is probably worse. If they recognized their responsibility towards NZ GA pilots they 'might' do something about it (and I can safely say most NZ GA pilots are not happy with their payscales). In the meantime, as I've just discovered: the award for a grade 3 in Oz is more than what most B-cats (grade 2) make in NZ. Even if they're training Multi IFR students.
I'm all ears for solutions...then again perhaps I'm being a bit hasty..I think I'm the first NZer to say 'yep, we're getting a raw deal on this side of the ditch...' Speak up fellas
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Aviation white paper
Thanks once again for everyone’s input on this subject. Still urge all readers to submit to FWA. As we can see this thread is ever evolving into a discussion which encompasses all issues affecting pay, conditions and AFAP's role in GA. As Mr Cox has mentioned in previous posting, it’s up to us as GA pilots to lobby for change and to take a proactive role in the AFAP. The more we start working together and less against, the more change will hopefully occur i.e. pay.
Here is a link on the recent Aviation White Paper which the government published in Dec 2009. It’s a good read and discusses foreseen issues within GA in the future.
A National Aviation Policy Statement - the Aviation White Paper
Here is a link on the recent Aviation White Paper which the government published in Dec 2009. It’s a good read and discusses foreseen issues within GA in the future.
A National Aviation Policy Statement - the Aviation White Paper
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I still maintain that instructors should be paid wages similar to TAFE teachers as they do the same job without the perks.
That will either win members or lose them. If I was shepherded into a classroom for some unionist to come and lecture me, I'd point blank to refuse to join.
How on earth could you possibly come up with a negative post on an AFAP road show? congrats
Your anti-Union sentiment is typical of right wing pilots until they join an Airline and actually see what a union is and what they do.
What would they be lecturing you on? All they would be do is explaining what the benefits of being a member are.
And yes you don't have to go if you don't want to. You can and hope for that magical pay increase that will one day fall from the sky and keep voting Liberal who want to dissolve Awards.
G'day again,
I agree that AFAP should be more prominent in general aviation. I think it'd be great if the AFAP could organise a BBQ at Jandakot and other GAAP's, so guys and girls who are completing their training and those already employed can meet with AFAP reps, find out what they do and how to join. It'd also be a good way for people to get together and chat about issues etc. In a previous life i worked in a more unionised job. The union that represented us was always around doing luchtime talks, talking about legal issues and generally promoting themselves.
I don't think this discussion should become a slagging match between union members and non-union members or whatever. As has been said many times on this site, the more we fight amongst ourselves the less we stick together and actually push for better conditions.
There are plenty of other posts that have fallen in a hole because of people bagging others out!
I agree that AFAP should be more prominent in general aviation. I think it'd be great if the AFAP could organise a BBQ at Jandakot and other GAAP's, so guys and girls who are completing their training and those already employed can meet with AFAP reps, find out what they do and how to join. It'd also be a good way for people to get together and chat about issues etc. In a previous life i worked in a more unionised job. The union that represented us was always around doing luchtime talks, talking about legal issues and generally promoting themselves.
I don't think this discussion should become a slagging match between union members and non-union members or whatever. As has been said many times on this site, the more we fight amongst ourselves the less we stick together and actually push for better conditions.
There are plenty of other posts that have fallen in a hole because of people bagging others out!
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Guys
Slow down a little. For starters the Federation is a pilot body run by pilots who employ staff to do the industrial job. We are not affiliated to the ALP or any political party nor do we send members money to any candidates. Equally we do not belong to the ACTU for much the same reasons.
The only outside body we are a mmber of is the International Federation of Air Pilots (IFALPA).
We do not and cannot demand you attend or join anything last i heard we are still a free country.
I and my colleagues attend some of the education institutions to give background on what the new pilots are getting themselves into and watch out for.
We are more than happy to attend any group meetings at any airport so that you can ask questions and get information on what we do as an organisation.
On another note we do not just do matters industrial; we are often involved in the regualtory process; we look after members in accident and incidents.
A members political beliefs are their own but i can tell you that past officers of this organisation have been members of the Liberals and Nationals as well as those with Labor. At the end of the day they had one defining interest as a pilot and that is looking after their fellow professional pilots.
Statistics show that those on union collective/Enterprise Agreements are always well in advance of the parent Award or previuosly AWA's
On a final note pilots wanting to improve things usually get together discuss a course of action and work as a team. Its called a UNION.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Slow down a little. For starters the Federation is a pilot body run by pilots who employ staff to do the industrial job. We are not affiliated to the ALP or any political party nor do we send members money to any candidates. Equally we do not belong to the ACTU for much the same reasons.
The only outside body we are a mmber of is the International Federation of Air Pilots (IFALPA).
We do not and cannot demand you attend or join anything last i heard we are still a free country.
I and my colleagues attend some of the education institutions to give background on what the new pilots are getting themselves into and watch out for.
We are more than happy to attend any group meetings at any airport so that you can ask questions and get information on what we do as an organisation.
On another note we do not just do matters industrial; we are often involved in the regualtory process; we look after members in accident and incidents.
A members political beliefs are their own but i can tell you that past officers of this organisation have been members of the Liberals and Nationals as well as those with Labor. At the end of the day they had one defining interest as a pilot and that is looking after their fellow professional pilots.
Statistics show that those on union collective/Enterprise Agreements are always well in advance of the parent Award or previuosly AWA's
On a final note pilots wanting to improve things usually get together discuss a course of action and work as a team. Its called a UNION.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots