Fake instrument flight time logged
Up north particularly during the dry there is a lot of smoke and haze which creates a huge inversion at night. You can't see the ground very well above 10,000 feet during the day! Just brown murk. At night no chance.
There is also a lot of high level cirrus and during the wet it is overcast much of the time, although generally during the wet the sky is much clearer and visibility better.
If you are flying south eastern Australia there will always be lights, navaids and generally (but not always) the air is clearer. Up north there is literally nothing for large distances and it gets really black!
There is also a lot of high level cirrus and during the wet it is overcast much of the time, although generally during the wet the sky is much clearer and visibility better.
If you are flying south eastern Australia there will always be lights, navaids and generally (but not always) the air is clearer. Up north there is literally nothing for large distances and it gets really black!
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Up north there is literally nothing for large distances and it gets really black!
I certainly agree with your earlier post that the NVFR rating should be used sensibly - not as a pseudo-CIR for long flights into the black hole.
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Here is a good one I have just thought of.
If while flying under IFR at night can you not make a Visual Apporach like during the day from 25nm? I'm only guessing not enough visual refernce? You have to shoot an approach or wait until you are within circiling area where you would be visual.
If while flying under IFR at night can you not make a Visual Apporach like during the day from 25nm? I'm only guessing not enough visual refernce? You have to shoot an approach or wait until you are within circiling area where you would be visual.
350 Hrs of night and still no expert but I still haven't seen more than one or two times when there is no visual reference whatsoever (and yes, I fly in the middle of nowhere).
Flying out in the center a truck in the distance will often look like a plane flying towards you, sound like you could see the horizon? Obviously its not IF and I wouldn't be logging it but if I cant see those trucks or stars above (there are no towns) I log it.
Ecovictim, yes a lot of that time is over bass straight, and I know of people who log a lot of it as IF time. 
There may be a few ships about on a clear night, but its the stars that are visible mostly. No horizon, but, as I said earlier, you can still get cues that assist in flying.
The explanation given by GG of high level overcast further north makes sense, and I appreciate there would be more true black hole situations up/out there.
There may be a few ships about on a clear night, but its the stars that are visible mostly. No horizon, but, as I said earlier, you can still get cues that assist in flying.
The explanation given by GG of high level overcast further north makes sense, and I appreciate there would be more true black hole situations up/out there.
Done much flying over Bass Strait at night time glekichi?
In fact done much night flying at all?
Done any real IFR flying?
Big dark world at there when you get away from the bright lights of Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane and Adelaide.
GG makes a valid comment about smoke haze in the NT, try flying around regional Victoria or NSW when the bushfire season is on, smoke can go up to FL200 plus and can vary in visiblity from a few 100 metres to a bit over 1000m.
In fact done much night flying at all?
Done any real IFR flying?
Big dark world at there when you get away from the bright lights of Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane and Adelaide.
GG makes a valid comment about smoke haze in the NT, try flying around regional Victoria or NSW when the bushfire season is on, smoke can go up to FL200 plus and can vary in visiblity from a few 100 metres to a bit over 1000m.
Done much work on reading and comprehension?
The bulk of the 350 night hours is IFR over bass straight.
I don't call that a whole heap, but enough to know that flying over bass straight out of cloud is incredibly different to flying it in cloud, and that difference needs to be reflected in the logbook!
The bulk of the 350 night hours is IFR over bass straight.
I don't call that a whole heap, but enough to know that flying over bass straight out of cloud is incredibly different to flying it in cloud, and that difference needs to be reflected in the logbook!
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Ah, but on those few really clear nights Owen, levelling off at 10000 out of Tassie, you can just make out the glow of good old Mel. Or the flashes of the thunderstorms waiting to meet you on the way........
Enjoy!
Enjoy!
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I've done my fair share of night flying around Vic SA NSW and Tassy but nothing compares to the black hole you get in WA/NT. I thought I knew what a blackhole approach was before I flew in WA. Give me a dark night into Whitemark over Giles anytime!
But this is getting way off topic.
But this is getting way off topic.
Last edited by eocvictim; 26th Jan 2010 at 08:06.
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If there is a total absence of outside light then you cannot see hills, objects or a horizon and visibility is below that requred for visual flight. Conditions are IMC. Instrument flight is required and should be logged as IF.
This can happen without low cloud, fog or haze. It usually requires overcast to eliminate starlight, and a lack of ground lighting.
Our esteemed regulators have have not spelled this out in their writings, but I am sure a court would find it so. And there have been many accidents to prove it.
The coroner in the Alice springs C210 accident actually went for a night flight in the police Navajo to see this for himself.
It is also important to realise that legal flight according to the written rules is necessary but the rules alone may not guarantee safety.We need to look further.
This can happen without low cloud, fog or haze. It usually requires overcast to eliminate starlight, and a lack of ground lighting.
Our esteemed regulators have have not spelled this out in their writings, but I am sure a court would find it so. And there have been many accidents to prove it.
The coroner in the Alice springs C210 accident actually went for a night flight in the police Navajo to see this for himself.
It is also important to realise that legal flight according to the written rules is necessary but the rules alone may not guarantee safety.We need to look further.
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If there is a total absence of outside light then you cannot see hills, objects or a horizon and visibility is below that requred for visual flight. Conditions are IMC. Instrument flight is required and should be logged as IF.
You might not be able to see anything - but if a hypothetical aircraft 10km ahead of you turned on its powerful landing light aimed straight at you, you'd instantly be able to see it. So visibility is >10km. It's slightly disturbing that people here, especially some of the more experienced guys, don't seem to have their head around this.
Note well: I'm NOT saying conditions are not "as bad as" IMC. But it's clearly not IMC, and the courts, which deal with strict legal definition, would find the conditions to have been VMC and the flight quite legal.
I agree with your last sentence.
Bushy - I.F. and I.M.C. are two totally different concepts. IMC does not mean that you can automatically log IF.
IMC is defined in CARs as non VMC. To look at it the other way, you can be at 10,000' and 100m laterally from a towering Cu and can see the horizon 121nm away in broad daylight (or at night). This is not VFR, therefore by definition, non VMC, thus you are IMC. Clearly you can't log IF here.
Instrument Flight relies solely on the inability to have an external reference. Nothing to do with Flight Rules or Instrument conditions.
Forgive me if I sound like a broken record, but this understanding is such an important point and does help to explain things. Personally, I think the regs that matter (CARs and CAOs) are quite clear in this, but they are obfuscated the regurgitated AIC now published on the CASA website.
EcoVictim - Give me Giles over Eucla!
IMC is defined in CARs as non VMC. To look at it the other way, you can be at 10,000' and 100m laterally from a towering Cu and can see the horizon 121nm away in broad daylight (or at night). This is not VFR, therefore by definition, non VMC, thus you are IMC. Clearly you can't log IF here.
Instrument Flight relies solely on the inability to have an external reference. Nothing to do with Flight Rules or Instrument conditions.
Forgive me if I sound like a broken record, but this understanding is such an important point and does help to explain things. Personally, I think the regs that matter (CARs and CAOs) are quite clear in this, but they are obfuscated the regurgitated AIC now published on the CASA website.
EcoVictim - Give me Giles over Eucla!
Last edited by compressor stall; 26th Jan 2010 at 12:00. Reason: clarity
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Accordingly logging a percentage of each or most flights as instrument time is perfectly normal and practiced by most airline pilots.
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Talking about flying over the never never on pitch black nights. Many years ago I met a RNZAF Hastings pilot who did a regular courier service NZ to Singapore via Amberley and Darwin. He was told that between Amberley and Darwin the population was sparce and not to expect ground lights for hours at a time.
Not so, he found out and reported that he could often see at night millions of tiny lights on the ground over the outback. He later figured they must have been the upturned eyes of the flies.
Not so, he found out and reported that he could often see at night millions of tiny lights on the ground over the outback. He later figured they must have been the upturned eyes of the flies.
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thanks for stallie..
if you cant see ****e its time to log IF..
the actual conditions are irrelevant..
how could anyone say that mornington island to Groote on a moonless night with high overcast is not by "sole reference".. nearest cloud at your level might be 200nm away..
if you cant see ****e its time to log IF..
the actual conditions are irrelevant..
how could anyone say that mornington island to Groote on a moonless night with high overcast is not by "sole reference".. nearest cloud at your level might be 200nm away..
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And visibility means being able to see things that are out there.
It's GFPT level stuff.
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I dont really think anyone is debating that.. but its got nothing to do with logging IF.. if someone has to turn on a light to see if your in VMC then you must be flying by "sole reference" and therefore entitled to log as IF..
Thanks Zapp, over to you from now on
As an aside, I never bother, but I could have legally logged 0.4 I.F. the other day - when in day VMC. That's another story though.
As an aside, I never bother, but I could have legally logged 0.4 I.F. the other day - when in day VMC. That's another story though.
if someone has to turn on a light to see if your in VMC then you must be flying by "sole reference" and therefore entitled to log as IF..