Fake instrument flight time logged

[Dog One]

RPT has to be planned IFR. A visual approach or departure can br carried out, but NVMC is not approved

[Line Driver]

I don’t believe that IF time can be logged while flying NVFR As you need to have two requirements met to log IF time as per the regs - First IMC is needed and secondly you must be controlling the aircraft by sole reference to instruments.

Even with the black hole effect you only have 1 of these (sole reference to instruments) but lack of a horizon isn't a criteria of maintaining VMC, and therefore isn't IMC conditions. So IF can’t be logged (unless wearing goggles and carrying a safety pilot)

If the regs stated that for VMC you need vis/cloud sep & A HORIZON then a black hole dep would be IMC AND the aircraft being flown by sole reference to instruments so IF could be logged.

But what I want to know from people who argue that
“When that last runway light is behind you on a dark night with no other lights in the area, conditions are definitely IMC.”
Can a non instrument rated pilot legally depart on a NVFR flightplan given they know that they will be breaking VMC and venturing into IMC?

Line Driver

[cficare]

Cum on fellas,

So your've got 10000 hours in the log book...half of which on a IFR plan...how many hours IFR are you claiming???

[eocvictim]

haha NVFR not N V M C I can just see it now "OH damn, sorry boys cant go flying there's NO cloud, its VMC."

Here's another one. What about thick smoke. I remember flying in smoke so thick at 4000 I had could only see the ground below. Its not cloud...

What about when you're in between 3+ layers of cloud. Cloud below above and to the sides. You're technically "IN" Cloud...

For your info I didnt log either as IF but thats me.

Quite often I find myself Flying in the middle of nowhere late at night and have to flick the lights on to check if I'm in IMC. Sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not. I split the difference.

I log IMC whenever I cant see anything, anywhere. Most of the time you've got stars but sometimes there is a layer above, as far as I'm concerned I could be in a thin layer with no precip, thats IMC.

I dont understand though, I'm logging at least 5 hours a month. Not many approaches now though

[The Green Goblin]

I just manage to keep current every three months flying full time. We do't fly in it often as they are usually big black and not nice looking so we go around. Its either cu or blue skies. The only real time you get any decent solid smooth stratus is during cyclone season.

[bentleg]

you need to have two requirements met to log IF time as per the regs - First IMC is needed and secondly you must be controlling the aircraft by sole reference to instruments.

For my education as a new IFR pilot can someone please point me to the regulation that says both requirements apply.


CAO 40.2.11.2 (a) says as one of the currency requirements -

completed 3 hours instrument time

and instrument time is defined at 40.2.1.2.1 as

instrument time means instrument flight time and instrument ground time

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Screw it, what if I just blast into cloud and all sorts of terrible IMC but refuse to fly by instruments? If I do this (and manage to live somehow) do I have to log IF as I didn't fly by sole reference to the instrument?

~FRQ CB

[framer]

Geeeeeeze Wayne, this just as painful as it was last year!
How about stop clinging rules like they themselves will come and save you on a dark stormy night ,and start using some common sense. If it is safer to fly soley by reference to the instruments (ie departure into the desert at night ) then do so ,and log it as IF. If you can happily do a mix of inside and outside to build your picture then don't.

[ZappBrannigan]

But what I want to know from people who argue that
“When that last runway light is behind you on a dark night with no other lights in the area, conditions are definitely IMC.”

Nobody should be actually arguing that. Yes, it's practically IMC, for all intents and purposes it's IMC, but it's not IMC. IMC is a legal, technical term that precisely defines conditions to be below a certain level (i.e. VMC). It seems a disturbing amount of people here don't seem to know the difference between IF, IFR and IMC. Note: I'm still sitting on the fence as to whether you can log "black hole" NVFR time.

If conditions were "definitely IMC", then you wouldn't be allowed to legally depart NVFR. Pretty simple.

IFR defines the flight rules - nothing else. IMC defines the conditions as less than VMC, regardless of what you can or cannot actually see in front of you. IF defines flight where there are no external visual cues assisting the pilot flying. And the prescence or absence of cloud is not a requirement for any of them.

[compressor stall]

[RANT]
Howard Hughes and Zapp - top of the class. You appear to be the only ones who have got the guts of the night IF issue from - surprise, surprise - the CAR Definitions! It's funny how so many people here have posted moaning and bleating about this being a thread every year, but they still get it wrong! Maybe it should be here every 6 months?

It seems many people should check the definitions in the front of the CARs of both Instrument Flight and Instrument Meteorological Conditions. Then check that of VMC and follow its lead to VFR flight. A good understanding of same would save much irrelevant twaddle every year and erroneous statements in this thread. Remember IMC is defined as not VMC which is in turn determined by those VFR flight distances from cloud.

Unless the CARs and CAOs have changed since September 2009, one CAN log IF on a pitch black night with no external references. The category of operation (IFR or VFR) is irrelevant. All that matters is that it is completely black out there and you are flying with sole reference to instruments. These conditions are less common than many people think.

Refer to the following thread where it is explained in detail by me (and others) 6 years ago.

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...g-hours-3.html

And the list of points that BombsGone gave on page one in this thread are from an obselete blue AIC that is no longer - most likely as it contradicted the CARs and CAOs. The fact that it still exists in the front of many logbooks does not make it "straight from CASA" nor correct.

[/RANT]

[j3pipercub]

I was going to mention that a thread like this tends to do the rounds every 9-12 months, just outside the realms of most people's living/working memory...

[BombsGone]

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Home

What I quoted on page one comes straight from the CASA web page covering the logging of flight time. It doesn't come directly from the CAR's and CAO's.

Compressor Stall. Thanks for pointing me at the CAR's. Volume 1 interpretation:

instrument flight time means flight time during which a person is flying an aircraft solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points.
instrument ground time means time during which a person practices simulated instrument flight in a synthetic flight trainer that has been approved by CASA under regulation 5.60.

I guess the key here seems to be "without external reference". Not that you're not looking at them but that they don't exist.

My major beef is that it appeared that people were advocating bending the rules so as not to have to meet recency requirements.

I think I've said enough on the topic.

Happy Flying

Bombs

[compressor stall]

BombsGone - thanks for the link. It's interesting that that old AIC has reappeared in a different form online. As said, it contradicts the CARs and CAOs.... No doubt two FOIs will have three opinions on the matter

I guess the key here seems to be "without external reference". Not that you're not looking at them but that they don't exist.

Exactly. And there are not too many areas and even fewer occasions when this is the case. e.g. you'd struggle to meet this in Victoria when clear of cloud.

[NOSIGN]

"So what do you want the pilots to do.....start a stopwatch every time they go into cloud and stop it when they exit. Over a 8 hour flight I can tell you that s*#t is not going to happen. I think 0.2 every sector is fair. "

Tempo,

I use a stop watch timing when I enter and leave IMC. It isn't as painful as it sounds. Even if you miss a few bouts of IMC, you have a better understanding of what 0.1 IMC is after you have been timing it for years. You're right though, maybe that's not everyone's cup of tea.

I started this method just after my IR after hearing a story that a retired QANTAS LH Capt had less IF time than some of the young GA Pilots wandering around.

NOSIGN

[hardNfast]

Pitch black night and your flying under IFR and using your instruments. Technically you could be in VMC. However how often have you flown into a cloud and not realised til your stobes are flashing in your face?

In fact being so dark how can you tell your actually VMC? There may be a cloud out there within 1000ft or 1500m (think thats the VMC requirment). You wouldn't see it til your in it.

Its dark your flying off instruments in my opinion is IF time. this doesn't apply if your flying over Sydney or another large town.

[43Inches]

My major beef is that it appeared that people were advocating bending the rules so as not to have to meet recency requirements.

Spot on,

This defines what can be logged;

instrument flight time means flight time during which a person is flying an aircraft solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points.

"Without external reference" includes lack of directional sunlight providing basic orientation. Whether you are flying a jet off the panel or a light trainer via the horizon, in day VMC especially you will always have an extra sense playing its part. Without knowing it your brain is still factoring which way is up not purely from the instruments alone. You will only know how well you orientate without this factor when it is gone. Hence the requirement to maintain some form of recency. Recency ensures you remember to maintain an effective scan in situations requiring it.

Transport category pilots are less prone to accidents of this form in modern times more due to the fact of autoflight and two crew, feel a little disoriented switch on the autopilot.

As far as;

"So what do you want the pilots to do.....start a stopwatch every time they go into cloud and stop it when they exit. Over a 8 hour flight I can tell you that s*#t is not going to happen. I think 0.2 every sector is fair. "

I'm sure you could quite easily make an estimate of the total flight time in cloud without being too pedantic. However to just say you did 0.2 on a flight in clear skies with 100km vis is just wrong. Also what on earth are you doing during the 8 hours that you lack time to estimate how much cloud was entered.

As far as the Metro goes I think CASA should introduce a new category of aircraft for this machine as it must be vastly different to everything else out there (Aeroplane, Airship, Balloon, Helicopter and Metroliner).

[glekichi]

I'm not totally against it, but the fact is that a lot of people milk the logging of IF at night.

350 Hrs of night and still no expert but I still haven't seen more than one or two times when there is no visual reference whatsoever (and yes, I fly in the middle of nowhere).

There is almost always a few stars or a ship or something, and even when you can't see anything then you should still be scanning outside for traffic so not truly flying 'solely' on the instruments like you are when in cloud.

If you're gonna log black hole night as IF and are visual the rest of the time then why do we even bother with a night column in the logbook? Because its not Day VMC, but IMHO its not IF either: Its night visual flying and its a whole skill of its own.

[hardNfast]

Here is a good one I have just thought of.

If while flying under IFR at night can you not make a Visual Apporach like during the day from 25nm? I'm only guessing not enough visual refernce? You have to shoot an approach or wait until you are within circiling area where you would be visual.

[The Green Goblin]

350 Hrs of night and still no expert but I still haven't seen more than one or two times when there is no visual reference whatsoever (and yes, I fly in the middle of nowhere).

Perhaps in NZ....

In Australia flying over the dessert you may not see a light on the ground for two hours, in fact the only lights you will often see are the city you depart from and the runway lights at your destination. If there is overcast and no moon it's awfully dark out there. While not defined as IMC as you can legally fly in the same conditions NVFR i'd love to see the average non instrument rated Pilot who is barely current do it with ease.

Personally I think flying in cloud is easier than flying in the above conditions, at least you are popping in and out of the blue yonder occasionally and can often see the brightness of the sun above through the murk.

When you are signed out on a Australian NVFR rating you are specifically told "while you can fly with this rating anytime anywhere subject to the regulatory requirements, it is in spirit, designed as a tool to depart before first light and arrive after last light giving your flight planning more flexibility". "If you require to be able to fly in the middle of the night an instrument rating is highly recommended".

I don't think from what I have read on here anybody is confused or doesn't know the difference between IMC-IFR, IFR-VMC and VMC-VFR and NVFR, I just think most people are pointing out the 'gray' areas in the regs.

I always found it fascinating that I could be flying a Metro completely on the instruments with no outside reference what-so-ever at night, yet it's still VMC as there is no cloud.

In spite of what the regs say, if I cannot see a horizon regardless of the in-flight visibility (how can you tell if you can't see anything) I consider myself in IMC, YET I will only log I/F time if I was flying in cloud.......everyone I have spoken to has their own interpretation. Generally you log what the CP or checkies interpretation is depending on your company.

[glekichi]

Nah GG all but 20 of that is in OZ.

Perhaps up north over the ice cream (sorry) you get more overcast up in the flight levels (genuine question)?

Down in the south east the 99% of the cloud is below 10k, so in the cruise the night is usually quite starry and whilst you couldn't necessarily fly just by looking outside you definitely have a cue if the aircraft begins to pitch, roll, or yaw, which, even if only picked up by the peripheral vision, adds to the scan and makes flying easier than what it would be in a true black hole under overcast.