Paying for ICUS
Thread Starter
Part of the reason operators charge ICUS is that after investing quite a lot of money on a pilots training they will piss off at the drop of the hat, leaving the operator to fork out for the next lot of training.
A multi engine operator knows they have got them until 500 multi command, provided they meet the same conditions above. They also tend to stick around for a while on the pistons until a turbine slot shows up.
Turboprop operators generally have no choice with the training as it's mandated if they are a CAR217 operation however they do bond.
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Part of the reason operators charge ICUS is that after investing quite a lot of money on a pilots training they will piss off at the drop of the hat, leaving the operator to fork out for the next lot of training.
No wonder people piss off as soon as they get the hours they need. If they were a good operator to work for people would stay around.
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I wanted to let all this go but I am still wondering...
Am I hallucinating here? I'm actually a little confused and might sign off as I think there are passing comment here.
A company obtaining a government loan...and people are rejoicing in their struggle? People getting ICUS and people PPRuners canning the company?
Give me a break! So where is the happy medium? If companies like Tasair go under, apart from the immediate impact to family members and share holders, what happens to the employees...not just the pilots.
Doing IMC IFR flying to get experience is a challenge. If you are adept and qualified at that, kudos to you brother or sister.
But don't pooh pooh people having a crack at doing this and trying to survive (literally). The company and the crew are okay and seemed to be switched on.
I am not aligned to any company but I read these forums with mild bemusement. Do any of you guys honestly believe the regionals are making millions....?
If you want to take up the fight, take it up with QANTAS or another major. Having a go at Tasair about ICUS is bull shiber.
Am I hallucinating here? I'm actually a little confused and might sign off as I think there are passing comment here.
A company obtaining a government loan...and people are rejoicing in their struggle? People getting ICUS and people PPRuners canning the company?
Give me a break! So where is the happy medium? If companies like Tasair go under, apart from the immediate impact to family members and share holders, what happens to the employees...not just the pilots.
Doing IMC IFR flying to get experience is a challenge. If you are adept and qualified at that, kudos to you brother or sister.
But don't pooh pooh people having a crack at doing this and trying to survive (literally). The company and the crew are okay and seemed to be switched on.
I am not aligned to any company but I read these forums with mild bemusement. Do any of you guys honestly believe the regionals are making millions....?
If you want to take up the fight, take it up with QANTAS or another major. Having a go at Tasair about ICUS is bull shiber.
Last edited by Reading5; 4th Jul 2010 at 12:53.
There's no comeraderie where I fly, there's no updating the pilot behind you on the same route about the weather conditions etc. This is reflective of the industry on a whole, you are on your own, GA is something you survive alot of the time due to good luck rather than good management. Rather than be a good experience it is something you bear until you make it into an airline and are covered by an EBA.
On the case of Government intervention in Tasair, other operators would not get the same 'protections' 'subsidies' and 'bailouts.' They are tired of trying to make a quid on an unfair playing field. These other operators provide just as good and better services, they run on the smell of an oily rag. If the market was allowed to operate as it should there'd be less operators charging more realistic prices, then perhaps investment in better aircraft and better pay for pilots.
It is the competition that has been under charging and under paying for years and contributed to the current situation! That and a certain personality that drives hundreds of thousands of students' dollars away every year.
They could do a lot better by listening more to the inputs of non-management staff though. Lots of wasted money elsewhere. It's pretty demoralising to know the work you're doing is making an absolute killing for the company, yet they still struggle because its being pissed away!!
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I am not sure about Australian regulation but by UK regs the ICUS pilot must make all operational decisions during the trip. If the pilot in command is forced to disagree on any one of those operational decisions by the ICUS pilot, then the ICUS logging is cancelled and the ICUS pilot reverts to logging dual or copilot time.
Judging from the significant amount of ICUS time I have witnessed in some pilot's log books in Australia they must either have been flying superbly without a single remark or comment by the supervising captain - or they are logging cheating hours.
Judging from the significant amount of ICUS time I have witnessed in some pilot's log books in Australia they must either have been flying superbly without a single remark or comment by the supervising captain - or they are logging cheating hours.
The people you meet with any integrity over twenty years you will count on the fingers of one hand. This may not have been the case before 1989, don't know.
Certainly 9/11 was a significant event in world events - but 1989?
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9/11 was not significant in the world, only in the western world, do not get too self important about this event please. It was a pin prick in the global scale lets get real people.
9/11 was not significant in the world, only in the western world, do not get too self important about this event please. It was a pin prick in the global scale lets get real people.
warning further thread drift:
meaning no disrespect to the tragic events but in Australia shouldn't we be calling it 11/9 rather then 9/11...
aaaaannnnd back to my hole
meaning no disrespect to the tragic events but in Australia shouldn't we be calling it 11/9 rather then 9/11...
aaaaannnnd back to my hole
"In 1989, the then Prime Minister, Bob Hawke infamously put down all pilots and with Peter (Not quite) Ables caused massive stress to a number of good people"
If memory serves me correctly, didnt all the pilots resign en mass? Wouldn't that mean that people were re-employed on merit?
I dont know, but, maybe you had no merit
Dont know 
If memory serves me correctly, didnt all the pilots resign en mass? Wouldn't that mean that people were re-employed on merit?
I dont know, but, maybe you had no merit
Dont know
Last edited by Arnold E; 4th Jul 2010 at 10:44.
A37575,
The UK P1(U/S), Command under supervision is ICAO compliant, as is the equivalent in US, most of EU, SIN, NZ, PNG, most places I have had occasion to look.
Australia's ICUS is not compliant with Annex 1 --- except that a difference notice filed with ICAO makes it "compliant".
By exemption,(???) CASA "allows" a number of major airline's pilots to log time in compliance with ICAO Annex 1.
What is really behind all the anguish on this thread (whether people know it or not) is that Australia makes it very difficult for a young pilot to log Pilot In Command Under Supervision.
Further, because all too many pilots who have achieved the holy grail of "enough command time" are so myopic that they are unable/don't want to distinguish (in UK terms) between P1 (with the P1 name in the log book) and P1 U/S, ( with the actual P1's name Command column in the P1 U/S log book).
Some how or other, ICUS is equated with some kind of cheating, "bogus" time, maybe we should call it BAICUS, log it as "Command (B)".
All the screeching about the propriety of someone paying for what must be obtained, (somehow or other) is really an offshoot of the fact that AU does not comply with the spirit and intent of ICAO Annex 1.
If Australia actually complied with Annex 1, without a difference, most of the problem would go away.
As a side issue, CASA is getting it right royally screwed up about ICUS time on an air route, or ICUS time after endorsement, and what applies in the case of "group" endorsements ---- there have been some really creative, some quite bizarre re-interpretation of what are really long standing rules ---- ???
Tootle pip!!
The UK P1(U/S), Command under supervision is ICAO compliant, as is the equivalent in US, most of EU, SIN, NZ, PNG, most places I have had occasion to look.
Australia's ICUS is not compliant with Annex 1 --- except that a difference notice filed with ICAO makes it "compliant".
By exemption,(???) CASA "allows" a number of major airline's pilots to log time in compliance with ICAO Annex 1.
What is really behind all the anguish on this thread (whether people know it or not) is that Australia makes it very difficult for a young pilot to log Pilot In Command Under Supervision.
Further, because all too many pilots who have achieved the holy grail of "enough command time" are so myopic that they are unable/don't want to distinguish (in UK terms) between P1 (with the P1 name in the log book) and P1 U/S, ( with the actual P1's name Command column in the P1 U/S log book).
Some how or other, ICUS is equated with some kind of cheating, "bogus" time, maybe we should call it BAICUS, log it as "Command (B)".
All the screeching about the propriety of someone paying for what must be obtained, (somehow or other) is really an offshoot of the fact that AU does not comply with the spirit and intent of ICAO Annex 1.
If Australia actually complied with Annex 1, without a difference, most of the problem would go away.
As a side issue, CASA is getting it right royally screwed up about ICUS time on an air route, or ICUS time after endorsement, and what applies in the case of "group" endorsements ---- there have been some really creative, some quite bizarre re-interpretation of what are really long standing rules ---- ???
Tootle pip!!
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I think you'll find Tasair is still paying staff better than any other operator in Tasmania (unless, heaven forbid, the award is being enforced) and certainly is above average for GA.
Why would ex-staff be seeking entitlements? unless someone is just stirring the pot...
Sorry, yes, I forgot about the RFDS base in Launy. I was more thinking of piston charter operators. Rotorlift - not sure if that's relevant. Airlines of Tas - you're joking right?
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noticed the operator is now back on AFAP offering 20 hours ICUS "free" with an instrument rating.
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The ICUS is done on a freight run... having trainees fly the route does take a little longer and therefore cost a little more, but I think you'll find that the deal is more about making sure that Tasair can have punters rolling through the door to keep their grade one's busy as bored instructors are hard to retain.
