What to do at the holding point?
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What to do at the holding point?
Waiting to do some night circuits (at a VERY busy YSBK) the other night, and lined upbehind another airplane, when suddenly, no warning or coms, the pilot in front of us decides to do a u turn. No warning, no radios, and taxis partway onto the grass to get past us, in the opposite direction to taxying aircraft. We have to move onto the grass to let him/her/it pass. Can't see whether there are any obstructions in the grass. Me thinks it was a home built, with HID taxi/ldg lights, which very effectively blinded us. Had to ask same a/c to turn same lights of whilst same a/c was in the runup bays, facing oncoming taxying aircraft, with those hugely bright lights on full.
I ask - what is going on with the teaching of airmanship, courtesy, and common sense.
On another item whilst waiting, (as in but wait - there is more!!) a Mojave VH-IT? pushes into an already full circuit from a 5 mile final, basically demanding that all and sundry change everything so he could fit in. What a saad example of airmanship.
It really is time that some fundamental basics of airmanship, courtesy, and common sense get rammed home.
I ask - what is going on with the teaching of airmanship, courtesy, and common sense.
On another item whilst waiting, (as in but wait - there is more!!) a Mojave VH-IT? pushes into an already full circuit from a 5 mile final, basically demanding that all and sundry change everything so he could fit in. What a saad example of airmanship.
It really is time that some fundamental basics of airmanship, courtesy, and common sense get rammed home.
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Imagine being in the Piper Mojave coming into a busy GAAP at night when the tower is closed with a circuit full of bug smashers!
The last thing he wants to do is join the circuit and follow a lighty doing 80 knots on downwind!
I flew a Chieftain and Baron into a GAAP during the day a few times on ferry flights from up north and even with the tower operating it was disconcerting to say the least. You can't fly a wide circuit because some clown in a 172 is flying 747 size circuits leaving you few options. The slowest you can safely go with gear and flap is 110 knots with weight on before you loose all your forward vis and get yourself in serious bother with engine failure considerations. Rather than join upwind outside tower hours and let down into the pattern I'd be trying it on from 5 mile too as I'm sure most other guys in the same situation would also be also doing.
The landing light saga is pretty ordinary, he could have entered and rolled through on the runway or backtracked if available!
When you leave the GAAP environment and get out into the real world of aviation generally the smaller types accommodate the larger types where possible (even if they have to orbit on downwind or get out of the way) especially if it's RPT. Perhaps the same courtesy should be extended at the GAAPs outside tower hours.
The last thing he wants to do is join the circuit and follow a lighty doing 80 knots on downwind!
I flew a Chieftain and Baron into a GAAP during the day a few times on ferry flights from up north and even with the tower operating it was disconcerting to say the least. You can't fly a wide circuit because some clown in a 172 is flying 747 size circuits leaving you few options. The slowest you can safely go with gear and flap is 110 knots with weight on before you loose all your forward vis and get yourself in serious bother with engine failure considerations. Rather than join upwind outside tower hours and let down into the pattern I'd be trying it on from 5 mile too as I'm sure most other guys in the same situation would also be also doing.
The landing light saga is pretty ordinary, he could have entered and rolled through on the runway or backtracked if available!
When you leave the GAAP environment and get out into the real world of aviation generally the smaller types accommodate the larger types where possible (even if they have to orbit on downwind or get out of the way) especially if it's RPT. Perhaps the same courtesy should be extended at the GAAPs outside tower hours.
Saw a Gyro sitting on the holding point (the ONLY holding point) at a country CTAF the other day, completely blocking access to and egress from the runway.
After sitting at the holding point for 5 minutes warming up and doing his runups, he shut down and hopped out (still at the holding point) to get his rotor turning.
With an aircraft on base turning final, old mate makes a radio call, enters and backtracks
and forces a go-round.
The best bit was that, with the C182 now climbing through 300' on upwind to the right of the RWY, the Gyro climbs like a bastard and turns right directly in front of the other aircraft
Incident report lodged for that one
After sitting at the holding point for 5 minutes warming up and doing his runups, he shut down and hopped out (still at the holding point) to get his rotor turning.
With an aircraft on base turning final, old mate makes a radio call, enters and backtracks
and forces a go-round. The best bit was that, with the C182 now climbing through 300' on upwind to the right of the RWY, the Gyro climbs like a bastard and turns right directly in front of the other aircraft
Incident report lodged for that one
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Wait wait wait a minute; so you're telling me that there are other pilots out there? I thought I was the only one.
Sorry about doing that u-turn and taxying past you the other day, I thought that you were just the ground crew waiting to sweep up my rubbish (that HJ's wrapper I tossed out the storm window).
Sorry too about conducting the straight in and pushing my way in front of the "circuit" (whatever that is). As I thought that I was the world's only pilot I just assumed that all those lights were shooting stars.
~FRQ CB
Sorry about doing that u-turn and taxying past you the other day, I thought that you were just the ground crew waiting to sweep up my rubbish (that HJ's wrapper I tossed out the storm window).
Sorry too about conducting the straight in and pushing my way in front of the "circuit" (whatever that is). As I thought that I was the world's only pilot I just assumed that all those lights were shooting stars.
~FRQ CB
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I dont think thats good enough. I along with all of my coligues have been joining busy circuits and GAAPs in 200kt+ machines for years and wouldnt just push through because we cant get our spacing right. Its not THAT hard.
I'd also love to know what 200+ knot machine you are flying into a gaap. Particularly when you have stressed on here many times that you are a flight instructor
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Its part of the challange and at certain ad's you have very little choice but to join the circuit rather than strait in. .
Very few 200kt+ machines slow down to less than 110 in a circuit yet we all manage, we have to.
I'd still love to know what you think you are flying as you say
I along with all of my coligues have been joining busy circuits and GAAPs in 200kt+ machines for years
If you follow my posts you'd see I was an instructor
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Maybe the aircraft VNE is 200+ so is considered a 200+ machine...
The Mojave (if it is one of the ones I'm thinking of) could possibly have been carrying a medical priority and been trying to get on the ground quicker. If so, medical priority could have/should have been announced on an initial radio call.
Turbo prop drivers will always get nervous when a GAAP tower is closed and they are coming in to an occupied circuit. It is a challenging environment with dangers not easily detected by either pilots (try closing fast on a C152 from behind trying to judge spacing with only a white tail light and a beacon on the C152 blending in to ground lights) . A bit of airmanship/give and take goes a long way to preserving your own safety and the safety of other aircraft and potentially those under the path of falling debris...
The Mojave (if it is one of the ones I'm thinking of) could possibly have been carrying a medical priority and been trying to get on the ground quicker. If so, medical priority could have/should have been announced on an initial radio call.
Turbo prop drivers will always get nervous when a GAAP tower is closed and they are coming in to an occupied circuit. It is a challenging environment with dangers not easily detected by either pilots (try closing fast on a C152 from behind trying to judge spacing with only a white tail light and a beacon on the C152 blending in to ground lights) . A bit of airmanship/give and take goes a long way to preserving your own safety and the safety of other aircraft and potentially those under the path of falling debris...
Its a bit difficult for 4 172 to hold in a circuit at night while they wait for you to make an approach.
How is flying a 1,000ft circuit over the aerodrome difficult? Mate in all honesty, you're just making yourself look more like a goose every time.
morno
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Having been on both sides of the argument I'd put forward the idea that if it gets a bit tight.......training aircraft should give way out of courtesy.
Nine times out of ten a quick radio chat will sort everything out.
As an aside, the only time I've ever had a problem related to an arrogant private bloody minded private pilot tosser. Wouldn't give way, took his own sweet time, didn't answer radio call etc. Again, a quick chat on the ground sorted him out....don't think he'll be doing it again!!!
I find that the instructor types are more than helpful and the students?....well they try hard but you have to make allowances for them.
Now........where's Das Uber, I need a pointless argument!
Nine times out of ten a quick radio chat will sort everything out.
As an aside, the only time I've ever had a problem related to an arrogant private bloody minded private pilot tosser. Wouldn't give way, took his own sweet time, didn't answer radio call etc. Again, a quick chat on the ground sorted him out....don't think he'll be doing it again!!!
I find that the instructor types are more than helpful and the students?....well they try hard but you have to make allowances for them.
Now........where's Das Uber, I need a pointless argument!
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Its part of the challange and at certain ad's you have very little choice but to join the circuit rather than strait in.
I will always do a straight in over joining the circuit and if I do join the circuit it will be straight on to downwind! (well at 45 dgerees anyway
) I have never experienced a problem mixing it with circuit traffic even when the circuit traffic has been doing contra circuits. By listening out on the CTAF early and building a picture, you can vary your speed to fit in with other traffic. It ain't that hard, but of course that might be misconstrued as 'airmanship'...
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How does it go after Tower hours these days with say four or five Aircraft in the circuit, do they keep the radio calls to a minimum? Some spots with instructors telling the students "To do the right thing" and make four or five calls each Aircraft and every circuit flown. With any more than two Aircraft doing circuits you can't get a call in.
I'm right here! Dont fret.
Unfortunately I agree with you though. Whenever i'm buried in the circuit at night, or inbound PSP/TWRN and there is metro/other traffic around that I know will have difficult dealing with my little plane, ill have a quick chat and arrange something, whether that be a go around when infront of them, or an orbit etc.
Its all useful training for the student and reduces the chance ill end up as FOD in a metro engine
Unfortunately I agree with you though. Whenever i'm buried in the circuit at night, or inbound PSP/TWRN and there is metro/other traffic around that I know will have difficult dealing with my little plane, ill have a quick chat and arrange something, whether that be a go around when infront of them, or an orbit etc.
Its all useful training for the student and reduces the chance ill end up as FOD in a metro engine
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One of the biggest airmanship issues at YBAF during night circuit operations is no or a late inbound call from the IFR guys. Pretty hard to get the student thinking about how everyone's going to fit in when a PA31 makes in inbound call 2 miles from the field. Even worse when there is no call until joining the circuit. It gets even better when they join downwind for 28 when everyone else is doing circuits on 10.
You have two radios - use them!
Yes, I make the student complete the required three radio calls each circuit. But I give them a kick up the backside if they are non-standard and taking up too much time.
Where appropriate, I will continue 'to do the right thing'. What would happen if one of my solo students hit another aeroplane after only base calls (for example) had been made all night? How do I defend myself at the coroners inquest? "Sorry sir, but I know better than the AIPs".
You have two radios - use them!
How does it go after Tower hours these days with say four or five Aircraft in the circuit, do they keep the radio calls to a minimum? Some spots with instructors telling the students "To do the right thing" and make four or five calls each Aircraft and every circuit flown. With any more than two Aircraft doing circuits you can't get a call in.
Where appropriate, I will continue 'to do the right thing'. What would happen if one of my solo students hit another aeroplane after only base calls (for example) had been made all night? How do I defend myself at the coroners inquest? "Sorry sir, but I know better than the AIPs".