RAAF Training at East Sale?
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RAAF Training at East Sale?
Just wondering what sort of training is going to happen at East Sale starting from April 2011? As I understand it, they already train Navigators in the King Air 350's down there. Just curious after reading the adverts for Instructors on the AFAP website!
AFAP Latest Job Ads in Australia and Pacific - Australian Federation of Air Pilots
AFAP Latest Job Ads in Australia and Pacific - Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Moderator
The Boeing and Thales adverts no doubt refer to the present tender for Flight Screening and BFTS which is in the marketplace. At present, BAe does the work at Tamworth and the tender looks to the next period for the contract.
My limited understanding is that the tender requires ex-MIL QFI types and there is a long way to go before anyone has any real idea of who might be in the running for the final award of the contract.
The tender is not prescriptive in respect of where the contract is to be undertaken.
My limited understanding is that the tender requires ex-MIL QFI types and there is a long way to go before anyone has any real idea of who might be in the running for the final award of the contract.
The tender is not prescriptive in respect of where the contract is to be undertaken.
There are a lot of very good instructors at BAe. Either way, I hope they carry on doing what they do best!
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I don't understand why they want to put this thing at West Sale. There is no infrastructure there, its an uncontrolled airfield, and the weather is unsuitable to do basic training and flight screening.
I have spent a winter in ESL, and the wind and cloud conditions were hard enough for a qualified RAAF pilot, let alone a beginner.
I can't imagine how you'll attract staff (both civilian and military), to work in Sale. Some RAAF pilots love it there, but most never want to see the place again!
I have spent a winter in ESL, and the wind and cloud conditions were hard enough for a qualified RAAF pilot, let alone a beginner.
I can't imagine how you'll attract staff (both civilian and military), to work in Sale. Some RAAF pilots love it there, but most never want to see the place again!
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I don't understand why they want to put this thing at West Sale.
Apparently, that's the Boeing consortium's plan and, as is the normal thing, a matter for business plan speculation and risk assessment .. the customer's tender doesn't have any specific interest in any specific location. On the other hand, it does appear that East Sale is moving towards becoming the RAAF's training hub so East Sale or West Sale might fit in with that paradigm ? I can't see any specific indication of aerodrome in the Thales' advert so I guess it could either be for East Sale or West Sale.
There is no infrastructure there, its an uncontrolled airfield,
You would need to read the tender to see what is required and what development might be required at West Sale as a consequence.
the weather is unsuitable to do basic training and flight screening.
A commercial risk consideration for Boeing in these days of performance based contracts.
wind and cloud conditions were hard enough for a qualified RAAF pilot, let alone a beginner.
ditto.
I can't imagine how you'll attract staff (both civilian and military), to work in Sale.
ditto.
Apparently, that's the Boeing consortium's plan and, as is the normal thing, a matter for business plan speculation and risk assessment .. the customer's tender doesn't have any specific interest in any specific location. On the other hand, it does appear that East Sale is moving towards becoming the RAAF's training hub so East Sale or West Sale might fit in with that paradigm ? I can't see any specific indication of aerodrome in the Thales' advert so I guess it could either be for East Sale or West Sale.
There is no infrastructure there, its an uncontrolled airfield,
You would need to read the tender to see what is required and what development might be required at West Sale as a consequence.
the weather is unsuitable to do basic training and flight screening.
A commercial risk consideration for Boeing in these days of performance based contracts.
wind and cloud conditions were hard enough for a qualified RAAF pilot, let alone a beginner.
ditto.
I can't imagine how you'll attract staff (both civilian and military), to work in Sale.
ditto.
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Sale is not a bad place to live at all. It is a medium sized country town, it's just not a capital city (although it is classified as a city itself).
To put it into perspective it has McDonalds, KFC, Taco Bill, Subway, LaPorchetta, a shopping centre with Target, Dick Smith and a hardware store to rival Bunnings. I can think of much worse places to be based!
I am surprised to say that the weather is bad. It is standard country Victoria, it is low lying so doesn't suffer from low cloud like say Magalore, it gets smooth easterlies and the occasional fog like anywhere else. Provided you don't want the heat of QLD, the only decent place would have to be mid NSW coast perhaps.
To put it into perspective it has McDonalds, KFC, Taco Bill, Subway, LaPorchetta, a shopping centre with Target, Dick Smith and a hardware store to rival Bunnings. I can think of much worse places to be based!
I am surprised to say that the weather is bad. It is standard country Victoria, it is low lying so doesn't suffer from low cloud like say Magalore, it gets smooth easterlies and the occasional fog like anywhere else. Provided you don't want the heat of QLD, the only decent place would have to be mid NSW coast perhaps.
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When BAe/Ansett were looking at setting up their training airports in VIC were looked at but were knocked back mainly due to the weather reducing the amount of training days, hence Tamworth was selected.
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I never trained there myself, but BAe produces a really good product that (mostly) goes on to pass at 2FTS or Army Helo training.
If you want to stand up a new operation like this one, there will be years of 'lessons learned' and complexities. Where will their 'ex-military' instructors come from?
I guess I am asking: why move this thing (at enormous cost) when the incumbent is working well?
If you want to stand up a new operation like this one, there will be years of 'lessons learned' and complexities. Where will their 'ex-military' instructors come from?
I guess I am asking: why move this thing (at enormous cost) when the incumbent is working well?
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Tenders close in Feb, and a decision is due in May/June for an 'Interim BFT'. Has to be up and running by Jan 1 2012 
and will run for a minimum of six years until 5428 finally gets its sh!t together! 
There are four tenderers - three of them have pitched the old NSC HQ at WSL with a view to moving to ESL if they win 5428, while BAE is sticking with TMW for now.
and will run for a minimum of six years until 5428 finally gets its sh!t together! There are four tenderers - three of them have pitched the old NSC HQ at WSL with a view to moving to ESL if they win 5428, while BAE is sticking with TMW for now.
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The NSC HQ is now the Sale college of TAFE. These buildings that Thales and Boeing propose to use are all very occupied at the moment. They haven't even started building the new TAFE in the middle of town.
The other point is accommodation. I doubt there is enough on base accommodation or married quarters to handle an influx of approx 200 staff and students. You would have to build more accommodation in addition to upgrading the NSC facility. Who is going to pay for that?
The other point is accommodation. I doubt there is enough on base accommodation or married quarters to handle an influx of approx 200 staff and students. You would have to build more accommodation in addition to upgrading the NSC facility. Who is going to pay for that?
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Sale
Howdy, long time listener, first time caller, just thought I'd input to this.
Sale doesn't have Taco Bill anymore, but it has Red Rooster, who do a defence discount. :-)
Sale actually gets predominant westerly winds. I recall multiple occasions when the wind is actually anywhere between SW and NW, and if strong enough, throws the crosswind limit out for their nav training aircraft, the Kingair. The easterly is in the afternoon when the sea breeze kicks in.
Training at ESL at the moment in Air Combat Officers (both front and back seat 'navs' if you will, as well as ABMers who move off to Willy after ten flights), Navy Observers (TACCO/Co-Pilot role in helos), the School of ATC and Photographic. Central Flying School teach instructors and is the home of the toolettes.
West Sale would be okay, just depends on the aircraft flow and what operations are being conducted. On a normal day down there, they would normally send a few CT4s to WSL anyway to get them out of the ESL CCTA. While WSL is still technically a CTAF, they would still have a certain amount of protection offered by ESL ATC, as WSL needs a clearance for entry when ESL R358 is active. The frequency used for CTAF Ops at WSL, IIRC, was 133.6, the ESL ACD frequency.
Not looking for an argument, just offering some clarification having been down there not too long ago.
Oh yeah, and it is a nice place to live. Single guys, hate it. Families, love it.
Sale doesn't have Taco Bill anymore, but it has Red Rooster, who do a defence discount. :-)
Sale actually gets predominant westerly winds. I recall multiple occasions when the wind is actually anywhere between SW and NW, and if strong enough, throws the crosswind limit out for their nav training aircraft, the Kingair. The easterly is in the afternoon when the sea breeze kicks in.
Training at ESL at the moment in Air Combat Officers (both front and back seat 'navs' if you will, as well as ABMers who move off to Willy after ten flights), Navy Observers (TACCO/Co-Pilot role in helos), the School of ATC and Photographic. Central Flying School teach instructors and is the home of the toolettes.
West Sale would be okay, just depends on the aircraft flow and what operations are being conducted. On a normal day down there, they would normally send a few CT4s to WSL anyway to get them out of the ESL CCTA. While WSL is still technically a CTAF, they would still have a certain amount of protection offered by ESL ATC, as WSL needs a clearance for entry when ESL R358 is active. The frequency used for CTAF Ops at WSL, IIRC, was 133.6, the ESL ACD frequency.
Not looking for an argument, just offering some clarification having been down there not too long ago.
Oh yeah, and it is a nice place to live. Single guys, hate it. Families, love it.
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McGrath50,
dont be fooled by what you see at flight screening or BFTS as consisteing of a 'tight ship'. Behind the scenes the contract negotiations and butt licking are unbelieveable.
Dotsum
That is the point of a tender...they produce a product for a fixed price which the government pays for. That is what happened in Tamworth with Bae and that is what will happen with the next contract.
DHA will build and lease houses (without direct cost to the tax payer) and as for Civvy instructors same as any other Civvy job...look after yourself.
For many years training was conducted at Point Cook, arguably worse flying conditions that East/West Sale. Sure the weather is worse and less "sun" days, but we are teaching people to fly an aircraft in war time, granted it is ab-initio, but if you have to pick your way through a cloud deck to complete aeros above than so be it...harden up the training...too many lemons getting through
I can't see the BAe op not getting the tender again, they run a very tight ship there! Yesterday 16:05
Dotsum
Who is going to pay for that?
DHA will build and lease houses (without direct cost to the tax payer) and as for Civvy instructors same as any other Civvy job...look after yourself.
For many years training was conducted at Point Cook, arguably worse flying conditions that East/West Sale. Sure the weather is worse and less "sun" days, but we are teaching people to fly an aircraft in war time, granted it is ab-initio, but if you have to pick your way through a cloud deck to complete aeros above than so be it...harden up the training...too many lemons getting through
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There are plenty of houses, the RAAF when they need them just lease them through the estate agents. We owned one one leased by raaf and it sat unoccupied for 9 months!
Ok so they 'did' have a Taco Bill !
Ok so they 'did' have a Taco Bill !
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Who likes Sale?
People who live there.
Wasn't the idea to have military super bases? When this tender was under construction, East Sale was nominated by some DOD training big wigs to be the training super base...probably because many of the influential retired ex CFS blokes have bought farms and houses down that way.
Then recently, the Gubmint said they didn't want super bases because they realised what the political fall out would be when places like Pearce and Richmond "had" to go.
Sale may well be a nice place for families and CFS types. If VH-XXX's selection criteria for a good place is
On those criteria, Tamworth is a better place by far. Last I looked, Tamworth had 3 Macdonalds, 3 KFC, 2 Subway, a new Oporto, 2 Red Roosters, a brilliant main street, 4 large shopping centres/areas with Target, K-Mart, Big W, Dick Smiths...and a real Bunnings!
People like to live in Tamworth. That includes many serving RAAF folk!
As with Sale, some don't like it in Tamworth.
Why not Sale? Most servicemen don't want to get sentenced to CFS or the other training units based there. Let's face it, whilst important, the various training functions performed at Sale are hardly mainstream military so only certain people will want to go there. I did not like my times in Sale because it was too cloudy, too cold, too windy, too wet and too far away from where I wanted to be. (If weather is the defining criteria, then Tamworth wins again.) Adding BFTS to Sale would just add some more people who can't wait to get away, along with those who want to stay because they become settled.
Similarly, the BFTS at Tamworth is not mainstream military, just an important training function. NB: There are now 10 years worth of settled serving RAAF folk along with those who have retired in the area and got jobs at BAE.
Remember, getting people to volunteer for instructor duties at BFTS is much harder than getting them over to Pearce. That relates more to the job than the location. Despite the rose tint hindsight view of people talking about Point Cook, it was never a highly favoured military posting for the same reason (along with the low performance aeroplanes, hard course, crap weather and the close proximity of the sewage works.)
Wasn't the idea to have military super bases? When this tender was under construction, East Sale was nominated by some DOD training big wigs to be the training super base...probably because many of the influential retired ex CFS blokes have bought farms and houses down that way.
Then recently, the Gubmint said they didn't want super bases because they realised what the political fall out would be when places like Pearce and Richmond "had" to go.
Sale may well be a nice place for families and CFS types. If VH-XXX's selection criteria for a good place is
To put it into perspective it has McDonalds, KFC, Taco Bill, Subway, LaPorchetta, a shopping centre with Target, Dick Smith and a hardware store to rival Bunnings. I can think of much worse places to be based!
People like to live in Tamworth. That includes many serving RAAF folk!
As with Sale, some don't like it in Tamworth.
Why not Sale? Most servicemen don't want to get sentenced to CFS or the other training units based there. Let's face it, whilst important, the various training functions performed at Sale are hardly mainstream military so only certain people will want to go there. I did not like my times in Sale because it was too cloudy, too cold, too windy, too wet and too far away from where I wanted to be. (If weather is the defining criteria, then Tamworth wins again.) Adding BFTS to Sale would just add some more people who can't wait to get away, along with those who want to stay because they become settled.
Similarly, the BFTS at Tamworth is not mainstream military, just an important training function. NB: There are now 10 years worth of settled serving RAAF folk along with those who have retired in the area and got jobs at BAE.
Remember, getting people to volunteer for instructor duties at BFTS is much harder than getting them over to Pearce. That relates more to the job than the location. Despite the rose tint hindsight view of people talking about Point Cook, it was never a highly favoured military posting for the same reason (along with the low performance aeroplanes, hard course, crap weather and the close proximity of the sewage works.)
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Gun Dog,
A very interesting comment you make about 'too many lemons getting through'. I believe the standard of training is as high as it has ever been.
Too many lemons are getting through because it is much harder to scrub someone now.
In the old days the CO or CFI had the power to suspend someone on a 'scrub ride'. But now, there are an inordinate number of hurdles to jump over if you want to get rid of a non-performer. ARB, Notice to Show Cause, ROG,....the list goes on.
A very interesting comment you make about 'too many lemons getting through'. I believe the standard of training is as high as it has ever been.
Too many lemons are getting through because it is much harder to scrub someone now.
In the old days the CO or CFI had the power to suspend someone on a 'scrub ride'. But now, there are an inordinate number of hurdles to jump over if you want to get rid of a non-performer. ARB, Notice to Show Cause, ROG,....the list goes on.
Last edited by dostum; 13th Dec 2009 at 21:23. Reason: does not reflect what I really meant
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I have heard several 'little birdies' make mention of the CT4B's lack of crashworthy seating (which allegedly does not meet ADF Op Airworthiness requirements) hence tenders offering different types. 
Does the CT4F address this issue?? If the CT4 is off the list, what will BAE bring to the table?
Does the CT4F address this issue?? If the CT4 is off the list, what will BAE bring to the table?