Professional Pride
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Professional Pride
"Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots."
Ladies and gentlemen; enough is enough. I have been mortified by the brouhaha over the Norfolk Island ditching. The wannabes and the puerile can vent their spleens on other sites or fora; please let us keep the ethos of PPRUNE Rumours & News as stated above.
I know that this has been raised before, and not without good cause, but our once venerated site has been humbled by the illiterati and incognoscente who pretend to be our professional peers.
I suggest that the Rumours & News forum be the unique preserve of aviation professionals who are willing and able to provide our long-suffering Mods with their credentials, such as:
ATPL
CPL with 1,500 hours
Flying Instructor Class 2+ with 1,500 hours
Military aircrew, second tour
ATCO with three years experience
LAME (or equivalent) with three years experience
It would be up to our Mods to decide, but let us have at least one forum where the crass comments of tyros are simply not allowed.
One more point. There should also be a 'Three Strikes and Out' rule. Anyone who submits an unacceptable post would have it deleted by the venerable Mods. The third such deletion would attract a ban for a considerable time.
Ladies and gentlemen; enough is enough. I have been mortified by the brouhaha over the Norfolk Island ditching. The wannabes and the puerile can vent their spleens on other sites or fora; please let us keep the ethos of PPRUNE Rumours & News as stated above.
I know that this has been raised before, and not without good cause, but our once venerated site has been humbled by the illiterati and incognoscente who pretend to be our professional peers.
I suggest that the Rumours & News forum be the unique preserve of aviation professionals who are willing and able to provide our long-suffering Mods with their credentials, such as:
ATPL
CPL with 1,500 hours
Flying Instructor Class 2+ with 1,500 hours
Military aircrew, second tour
ATCO with three years experience
LAME (or equivalent) with three years experience
It would be up to our Mods to decide, but let us have at least one forum where the crass comments of tyros are simply not allowed.
One more point. There should also be a 'Three Strikes and Out' rule. Anyone who submits an unacceptable post would have it deleted by the venerable Mods. The third such deletion would attract a ban for a considerable time.
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You're right, it won't happen because it is simply not workable.
We do try very hard, and around the clock, to keep the Rumour & News forum as a front page forum for Topics and News that are of headline status, or are particularly relevant to a broad cross section of professional pilots.
Sometimes that means leaving a topic to see how it develops balanced against removing or moving those topics that their authors feel deserve the widest audience irrespective of the reality. On top of that we have dozens of specific forums that were created to host particular topics, and although they may not command the highest audience figures, they are nevertheless the natural locations for many topics.
We have a few restricted forums, where membership is by application and qualfication. The private airlines forums are just that. However the reality is, that the content of those forums shows no great leap in overall quality, and indeed the limited membership results in a very weak uptake and usage. If our front page forum were to be subject to the criteria, it would both fail to satisy the peception and it would fail to be our front page forum.
As a forum for the combination of news, discussion, rumours and opinion we try and restrict the general headline thread content to those subjects that have the best combination of professional pilot current interest, Newsworthy interest, contributory discussion, global importance, and anything else that may be deemed worthy of "front page" prominance. These editorial decisions are often easy to arrive at, but sometimes they provoke far more back room discussion than many would appreciate. When a particularly busy thread is born out of a very high profile event, we will usually have a host of moderators removing every irrelevant or sidetracking post simply to keep the subject mangeable. Despite this on a thread such as the AF447 thread, the post count went to over 2 million in a couple of weeks. However when that thread degenerated into little more than discussion between the same half dozen contributors it was moved to another forum. In a dynamic world, as something happens to bring the subject to the fore again, it can be moved back to R&N as appropriate.
It is never going to be perfect, or even close to it. The site is largely open to anybody, and whilst we will continue to edit and steer the forums to provide the best product from the raw material to the intended target audience, it has to be appreciated that access is open to the widest audience and as infurating or irritating as that might be from time to time, it does provide the widest range of source material and global interest. The site is popular and widely read. We understand that is a result of compromise, and that compromise is something we are very conscious of, and debate endlessly. Restricting access would do nothing other than kill the usefulness and certainly the global interest in the site.
Finally, this isn't a subject relevant to our front page forum either, and it will be moved sooner rather than later. Nevertheless it is worth pointing out from time to time that we do often agree with criticism that is levelled, but sometimes it is also necessary to point out the wider picture.
(In fact in the time it took to type this reply it has been moved.)
We do try very hard, and around the clock, to keep the Rumour & News forum as a front page forum for Topics and News that are of headline status, or are particularly relevant to a broad cross section of professional pilots.
Sometimes that means leaving a topic to see how it develops balanced against removing or moving those topics that their authors feel deserve the widest audience irrespective of the reality. On top of that we have dozens of specific forums that were created to host particular topics, and although they may not command the highest audience figures, they are nevertheless the natural locations for many topics.
We have a few restricted forums, where membership is by application and qualfication. The private airlines forums are just that. However the reality is, that the content of those forums shows no great leap in overall quality, and indeed the limited membership results in a very weak uptake and usage. If our front page forum were to be subject to the criteria, it would both fail to satisy the peception and it would fail to be our front page forum.
As a forum for the combination of news, discussion, rumours and opinion we try and restrict the general headline thread content to those subjects that have the best combination of professional pilot current interest, Newsworthy interest, contributory discussion, global importance, and anything else that may be deemed worthy of "front page" prominance. These editorial decisions are often easy to arrive at, but sometimes they provoke far more back room discussion than many would appreciate. When a particularly busy thread is born out of a very high profile event, we will usually have a host of moderators removing every irrelevant or sidetracking post simply to keep the subject mangeable. Despite this on a thread such as the AF447 thread, the post count went to over 2 million in a couple of weeks. However when that thread degenerated into little more than discussion between the same half dozen contributors it was moved to another forum. In a dynamic world, as something happens to bring the subject to the fore again, it can be moved back to R&N as appropriate.
It is never going to be perfect, or even close to it. The site is largely open to anybody, and whilst we will continue to edit and steer the forums to provide the best product from the raw material to the intended target audience, it has to be appreciated that access is open to the widest audience and as infurating or irritating as that might be from time to time, it does provide the widest range of source material and global interest. The site is popular and widely read. We understand that is a result of compromise, and that compromise is something we are very conscious of, and debate endlessly. Restricting access would do nothing other than kill the usefulness and certainly the global interest in the site.
Finally, this isn't a subject relevant to our front page forum either, and it will be moved sooner rather than later. Nevertheless it is worth pointing out from time to time that we do often agree with criticism that is levelled, but sometimes it is also necessary to point out the wider picture.
(In fact in the time it took to type this reply it has been moved.)
Moderator
Yes JD, the Dunnunda Mods also agree with the criticism, but restricting forum access to "qualified professionals" is not the solution.
The PPRuNe Forums you read are not "PPRuNe policy", Danny, the Mods or Admins or our personal bias - they are the direct product of user input.
Sometimes I want to beat my head against the wall in frustration with some posts. And if we remove or edit an inappropriate post we cop an abusive PM or email!
My pet hates:
Do you think the three Dunnunda Mods volunteer many hours of our time every day, unpaid, just to be abused for our decisions by disaffected users? Why shopuld we cop Danny's wrath over declining forum standards when it is the result of a very small minority of users whose fathers got into the gene pool when the life guard wasn't watching?
I have a big red BAN button just waiting for your next shot over my bows!
The Mods have often discussed screwing down the posting standards in Dunnunda. If that is what the majority want, we're more than happy to oblige!!!
But don't be surprised or complain if you find you can't access a thread, the Dunnunda Forum or PPRuNe.
And if you are not a professional pilot, engineer or airline/aviation industry employee with something constructive to add, HERE is just the site for you!
The PPRuNe Forums you read are not "PPRuNe policy", Danny, the Mods or Admins or our personal bias - they are the direct product of user input.
Sometimes I want to beat my head against the wall in frustration with some posts. And if we remove or edit an inappropriate post we cop an abusive PM or email!
My pet hates:
- Fatal accident thread - endless condolence posts from users who never new the pilots or company involved.
- Norfolk Island thread - who cares and what does it have to do with aviation that the guy featured in Cleo, Playboy, Mechanics Illustrated or Beano comics?
- "I have a CPL - where do I find a job?" Do a forum search and get off your @ss and go look!!!
- "Which flying school" or "Is Fred Nurk's Flying Circus a good flying school?" Do a Forum search and get off your @ss and go talk to the schools and look around!!!
- "Anyone know a good aviation tax accountant?" You ask pilots about accountants?
You believe a pilot's assessment of an accountant you'd believe anything! Try asking a politician or the Packers - they probably pay less tax than the rest of us! - "Should I do an aviation degree?" No, of course not, stupid! Go and do a medical degree or study law and become a politician - that is where the real money is!
- Naming individuals. We have over a million page views each day. Would you want your name up in lights on PPRuNe for all to see?
- One line "Agreement" posts - e.g. "Yes, I'd agree with that."
- Those in love with the sound of their own keyboard and repetitiously post worthless dribble.
- Users with multiple user names who continually either debate or agree with them selves. Get urgent medical treatment for your schizophrenia! Remember, you are not fooling the Mods. We can see each poster's IP address, compare and search IP addresses and trace IP addresses back almost to a suburban address.
- Malicious libel posts from "anonymous" users. No, you are not anonymous. We record all IP addresses and you can be traced to your front door very easily - as others have learned to their peril and personal expense.
- The 150 hour CPL "expert". I almost choke on my coffee with the "professional opinion" on technical issues by those who have only earned a license to learn! I often wonder at the standard of Australian flying schools. We have very high time, experienced professional pilots and engineers who post on PPRuNe - learn from their competant comments. Better to post nothing than post and everyone knows you are a fool!
- Spelling police. We're not all perfect but how about you leave the editing to the Mods?
- Qantas, Qantas, Qantas, Qantas....... The Australian aviation industry is not just Qantas. "Qantas did a go-around at Adelaide this morning. Anyone know why?" Yes, I do. The Captain made a command decision in accordance with SOPs. End of thread!
- The childish bitching and hand bag slapping by some obviously immature and bitter QF CC. As a group you have been tossed out of Dunnunda and CC Forum and are currently back in Dunnunda under sufferance. You give yourselves, your colleagues, your airline and the industry a bad name. If yiou don't like Qantas or being a CC - have the guts to get another job you do like!!!
- "Qantas only pay me $55,000 per annum as a new Dash 8 FO". Whoopy-do! Graduate accountants start around $35k per annum after four years of self funded study. Your colleagues and union voted in your EBA - I had nothing to do with it. Two choices: Ask for more money if you think you are worth it; or get a job that pays more. Simple!
- Repetitious allegation of Mod bias simply because we edit a post, close or remove a thread etc. If that were fact, I must be on the payroll of every airline in Australia! I've never worked for or had any connection with any major Australian domestic or international airline and have no allegiance to any airline or aviation operator. Indeed, I have not been employed in the aviation industry for seven years.
- "Is flying a profession or a trade?" Neither. It is a job and vocation like any other. Get your head out of your @ss and understand you are no different to any other working Australian. Like pilots, ship's captains, bus drivers, tour guides, police and taxi drivers all wear epaulettes. Why are you any different or better?
Do you think the three Dunnunda Mods volunteer many hours of our time every day, unpaid, just to be abused for our decisions by disaffected users? Why shopuld we cop Danny's wrath over declining forum standards when it is the result of a very small minority of users whose fathers got into the gene pool when the life guard wasn't watching?
I have a big red BAN button just waiting for your next shot over my bows!
The Mods have often discussed screwing down the posting standards in Dunnunda. If that is what the majority want, we're more than happy to oblige!!!
But don't be surprised or complain if you find you can't access a thread, the Dunnunda Forum or PPRuNe.
And if you are not a professional pilot, engineer or airline/aviation industry employee with something constructive to add, HERE is just the site for you!
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Great post Tailwheel. I must admit I've been guilty of a few of the above. Now I know what not to do!
This is gold.
I've never worked out why someone would go to the effort to make other tags.
Gold.
Just an idea I'm sure you've discussed it before but why not ban based on actual IP numbers? I suppose this does penalise the 4 other pilots living in the same house but it will make your life easier! I think the news websites do this.
This is gold.
Users with multiple user names who continually either debate or agree with them selves. Get urgent medical treatment for your schizophrenia! Remember, you are not fooling the Mods. We can see each poster's IP address, compare and search IP addresses and trace IP addresses back almost to a suburban address.
The childish bitching and hand bag slapping
Just an idea I'm sure you've discussed it before but why not ban based on actual IP numbers? I suppose this does penalise the 4 other pilots living in the same house but it will make your life easier! I think the news websites do this.
Moderator
.....why not ban based on actual IP numbers?
). If we banned your current IP address 124.xxx.xx.xx next time you logged on and were allocated a new IP address, you would avoid the ban. And someone else allocated that IP address at log on would be banned!If we banned your ISP, iinet.net.au we would also ban other users who use that ISP.
Thinking of one particular serial pest connected to that ISP, that may not be a bad idea!!!
And no, Mr Hat can not be traced from the information I've given in this post. Mods releasing personal details is a cardinal sin, worse than lusting after your Mother-In-Law.
So why don't you just 'out' some of the clowns or their street addresses so it becomes a self imposed ban because their peers think that they are idiots?
It's probably a bit harsh but it never hurt to make an example of someone
It's probably a bit harsh but it never hurt to make an example of someone
Moderator
I received a PM only this week:
That is an old timer, respected for his input to PPRuNe and due for his ten year PPRuNe gold watch, wanting to quit due to "....too many nut cases,..."
I sincerely hope I've talked him out of quitting PPRuNe. This forum would be a poorer place for his absence.
Why should we let the morons run the assylum, to the detriment of those who have earned the right to be here?
After giving it much thought, I have decided to end my years of being a Member of PPRuNe, both as XXXXXXX and as you know Xxxxx too, it is just not the same any more, too many nut cases, I think most of the Pilots I worked with for decades have left.
I tried to sort of cancel my Membership but cannot see how to do it, could you PLEASE?
Thank you for your help over the years,
Best regards,
I tried to sort of cancel my Membership but cannot see how to do it, could you PLEASE?
Thank you for your help over the years,
Best regards,
I sincerely hope I've talked him out of quitting PPRuNe. This forum would be a poorer place for his absence.
Why should we let the morons run the assylum, to the detriment of those who have earned the right to be here?
Moderator
I see you aren't in Fiji at present troppo?
No, a Mod can "not" out any user, for any reason, to anyone, at any time. User details are sacrosanct.
We protect our users, whether moron or genius.
No, a Mod can "not" out any user, for any reason, to anyone, at any time. User details are sacrosanct.
We protect our users, whether moron or genius.
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or maybe...
I can't disagree with anything that’s been said here. I've followed many a thread here during which the first 3 or 4 posts have been relevant, then the chest beating and stupidity starts and you're left wondering how these morons even got enough cells together to get to a testing centre, let alone pass atpl exams.
Why don't they realize that they are creating an impression of the industry to others which is far less than complimentary. By attacking each other for all to see it almost illustrates what is fundamentally wrong with aviation as a career choice these days, these guys are supposed professionals?
Anyhoo, here is my solution to the issue. Write a little app (active x etc) which will run each time you visit the site. This app will take the mac address of the NIC and construct a table of three strikes vs mac address. Then the numpty can be prevented from using that pc for posting here if their 3 strikes are up. Yes they can use another pc, but I reckon they'd get tired of that soon enough.
Yes a wild and wacky idea... (or is it)
BP
(and yes I know you can spoof a mac address too
)
Why don't they realize that they are creating an impression of the industry to others which is far less than complimentary. By attacking each other for all to see it almost illustrates what is fundamentally wrong with aviation as a career choice these days, these guys are supposed professionals?
Anyhoo, here is my solution to the issue. Write a little app (active x etc) which will run each time you visit the site. This app will take the mac address of the NIC and construct a table of three strikes vs mac address. Then the numpty can be prevented from using that pc for posting here if their 3 strikes are up. Yes they can use another pc, but I reckon they'd get tired of that soon enough.
Yes a wild and wacky idea... (or is it
)BP
(and yes I know you can spoof a mac address too
)
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I suggest that the Rumours & News forum be the unique preserve of aviation professionals who are willing and able to provide our long-suffering Mods with their credentials
A vexatious problem, that to give the Mods their due, do an outstanding job, for which a medal should be struck. And I know I have tested their mettle.
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I've been trying to come up with an idea but don't have anything really. Maybe the IT minded like boardpig will come up with a solution.
An idea i did have was to have a rewards system maybe. But I'm not sure if this will actually create more work. Say for example someone like ITCZ for example have "pprune contibutor" on their tag and the opposite for trolls. I don't know.. but i do know its getting harder to have a decent debate without it getting silly.
An idea i did have was to have a rewards system maybe. But I'm not sure if this will actually create more work. Say for example someone like ITCZ for example have "pprune contibutor" on their tag and the opposite for trolls. I don't know.. but i do know its getting harder to have a decent debate without it getting silly.
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I see PPRuNE is powered by vBulletin, and this has the capability to add "User Reputation" functionality. That way, users could rate each other.
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Tail Wheel,
you forgot:
Some members here don't realise that one of the reasons this board was created was to bring like-minded people together in a friendly environment. If you scroll back through the past few years in D&G, you wouldn't think so!
Many of the original (and highly qualified/respected) members of D&G don't even bother posting here anymore, which seems to confirm TW's post regarding a long-termer wishing to cancel his membership. It's a pity when such a good place is taken over by small-minded, smart-arsed know it all's.
Such a shame. When I first joined back in '96, the tone in the D&G forums was completely different to what we experience here today. We always tried to help each-other out. Sure, there was "robust" discussion on some topics, but there was a sense of "community", which hasn't existed in D&G for some time.
Hopefully this thread will serve to get people to reconsider the way they conduct themselves in D&G.
TID.
you forgot:
- Stupid threads between board mates which end up as "mutual admiration societies" stroking their egos, because their xyz aeroplane is better than the other bloke's abc Penis envy guys, penis envy...........
- People that, rather than search for an appropriate running thread to post in (or who would prefer to draw attention to themselves - "Hey! Breaking news!") start a new thread, making life for those that can be bothered using the search function hell.
- Members that flame others because they don't possess the intellect to construct a valid argument.
- Qantas Cabin Crew bitchfests. Oh, you already mentioned that, TW...
Some members here don't realise that one of the reasons this board was created was to bring like-minded people together in a friendly environment. If you scroll back through the past few years in D&G, you wouldn't think so!
Many of the original (and highly qualified/respected) members of D&G don't even bother posting here anymore, which seems to confirm TW's post regarding a long-termer wishing to cancel his membership. It's a pity when such a good place is taken over by small-minded, smart-arsed know it all's.
Such a shame. When I first joined back in '96, the tone in the D&G forums was completely different to what we experience here today. We always tried to help each-other out. Sure, there was "robust" discussion on some topics, but there was a sense of "community", which hasn't existed in D&G for some time.
Hopefully this thread will serve to get people to reconsider the way they conduct themselves in D&G.
TID.