Flying Seaplanes
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I'm sure the old saying has something to do with glass houses..... unless I was a high time amphib pilot with a perfect record I would be very careful about casting opinions on others misfortune .. just my opinion of course...
Improper training of course adds to the risk factor of a pilot not performing such a necessary action as confirming the gear is up before landing on the water.
Join Date: May 2007
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Hi all
Here's a question, after reading the previous posts I'm wondering if it is at all possible or has it happenend before, that the hydraulic system that operates the gear has failed causing the gear to lower during flight?
I'd assume that the switches would perhaps light up the green for grass light even though the gear is selected up? I have limited amphib beaver time hence this may be a wee bit of a silly Q.
Here's a question, after reading the previous posts I'm wondering if it is at all possible or has it happenend before, that the hydraulic system that operates the gear has failed causing the gear to lower during flight?
I'd assume that the switches would perhaps light up the green for grass light even though the gear is selected up? I have limited amphib beaver time hence this may be a wee bit of a silly Q.
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After reading my previous post I though I'd explain the green for grass comment.
When I did my endorsement I was taught to challenge the undercarriage position as usual prior to landing. Two indicator lights indicate the gear position. Up has a blue light for water landings and down has a green light for grass landings.
Not sure if this is a common feature?
When I did my endorsement I was taught to challenge the undercarriage position as usual prior to landing. Two indicator lights indicate the gear position. Up has a blue light for water landings and down has a green light for grass landings.
Not sure if this is a common feature?
Some amphib floats will also have indicators on the top of the floats as to be another visual indication of gear position. (PK's etc)
Always sneak that last look at the gear just before the flare/round-out, it has saved more than one I'm tipping.
Regards,
OpsN.
Always sneak that last look at the gear just before the flare/round-out, it has saved more than one I'm tipping.
Regards,
OpsN.
Join Date: May 2007
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OpsN and others
True, I was also taught to check the gear position by means of convex mirrors and the front wheels (cant miss that 2 foot long arms) but has anyone heard of the main gear extending in flight?
For example what would happen if the hydraulic oil was ruptured and all the fluid ran out of the system. Would the gear extend or would it remain up in the floats and not extend next time the gear was selected down?
True, I was also taught to check the gear position by means of convex mirrors and the front wheels (cant miss that 2 foot long arms) but has anyone heard of the main gear extending in flight?
For example what would happen if the hydraulic oil was ruptured and all the fluid ran out of the system. Would the gear extend or would it remain up in the floats and not extend next time the gear was selected down?
Join Date: Dec 2006
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The gear can fail
I have to disagree with the canadian with the perfect Amphib record. On the older EDO floats eg 4580" or the streatched 4930" and you can include the Edo amphibd for thr Otter. The main gear is held in the retracted position by hydraulic pressure ONLY. There are no mechanical catches. If the pressure in the system is released the main gear will drop. We had a lot of trouble when operating in salt water with the salt eating into the steel hydraulic lines causing holes and therefore leaks to develop. I know of several cases where the steel cable which retracts the front wheels has failed causing the pilot to land on the water with one front gear locked in the down position.
The older systems did not have a back up hydraulic system. if for any reason a break occured between the pump and the landing occurs the pump simply empties the oil [ normally onto the pilot's feet ] . I have personally had this happen in an Otter and ended up with the nose gear up and secure but the main wheels dangling halfway between full up and full down. After much deliberation we landed very gingerly on the water. We pulled up very quickly but safely with no damage. a quick pipe replacement and some new oil and away we went.
The whiplines have a dual pump and tank system and the gear has mechanical locks so the Edo problems do not occur.
The only method to avoid gear stuff ups is to look out the window. Have a set of mirrors the enables the crew to visually check all wheels. Add the visual check to your check list and never ever fail to use your written check list. This will keep you from getting wet and having to fill out lots of paperwork.
The older systems did not have a back up hydraulic system. if for any reason a break occured between the pump and the landing occurs the pump simply empties the oil [ normally onto the pilot's feet ] . I have personally had this happen in an Otter and ended up with the nose gear up and secure but the main wheels dangling halfway between full up and full down. After much deliberation we landed very gingerly on the water. We pulled up very quickly but safely with no damage. a quick pipe replacement and some new oil and away we went.
The whiplines have a dual pump and tank system and the gear has mechanical locks so the Edo problems do not occur.
The only method to avoid gear stuff ups is to look out the window. Have a set of mirrors the enables the crew to visually check all wheels. Add the visual check to your check list and never ever fail to use your written check list. This will keep you from getting wet and having to fill out lots of paperwork.
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BeaversRule
Thanks for your post that was the answer I was looking for. The same thing occurs on some land based retractable gear although it is not such a disaster for obvious reasons.
I do however find it interesting that in some cases the oil dumps onto the pilots feet. An indicator like that would most certianly destroy your brand new double pluggers, but I'm not sure many float pilots would know what all the oil means.
All I need now is a job flying a Beaver. After the endorsement I'm hooked
Thanks for your post that was the answer I was looking for. The same thing occurs on some land based retractable gear although it is not such a disaster for obvious reasons.
I do however find it interesting that in some cases the oil dumps onto the pilots feet. An indicator like that would most certianly destroy your brand new double pluggers, but I'm not sure many float pilots would know what all the oil means.
All I need now is a job flying a Beaver. After the endorsement I'm hooked
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"This is a water landing so the gear is up"
Hi Everyone
My first post in the DG&P. Re the danger of landing an amphib on the water with the gear down, I have a Lake Renegade 250 and these are words I say out loud for each and every landing:
"This is a water landing so the undercarriage is up to land on the water"
or
"This is a land landing so the undercarriage is down to land on the land"
I say these phrases religiously each time I'm landing during the pre landing checks and I look at the main gear position out the window and check the nose wheel's position using the sponson mirror (forget the lights you must look out the window and get visual confirmation; if your aircraft can't give you this and you can only rely on the lights you're introducing potential system failure and you must establish another mechanism to know if the gear is down; such as a way of realising there's extra drag or something). Then when I'm turning final I do a PUF check (Prop full fine, Undercarriage is up for the water landing, Flaps down). On very short final I say the phrase again "This is a water landing so the undercarriage is up to land on the water".
With around 300 water landings under my belt I consider myself still in the early phases of learning this water flying craft thoroughly, but I've never once commenced the landing sequence and put the gear in the wrong position (or left it down after take off from a hard surface and flown to a water landing site then realised it's still down).
I think what Chuck says is true, you have an absolute reposonsibility to your passengers, yourself and your craft to be 100% on this. It just has to be treated the same as other critical checks such as water in your fuel, or fuel quantity for the intended flight. There's really no excuse, if you're flying an amphib, be it floats or hull, you have to have a very thorough process for checking and cross checking yourself.
Ren
My first post in the DG&P. Re the danger of landing an amphib on the water with the gear down, I have a Lake Renegade 250 and these are words I say out loud for each and every landing:
"This is a water landing so the undercarriage is up to land on the water"
or
"This is a land landing so the undercarriage is down to land on the land"
I say these phrases religiously each time I'm landing during the pre landing checks and I look at the main gear position out the window and check the nose wheel's position using the sponson mirror (forget the lights you must look out the window and get visual confirmation; if your aircraft can't give you this and you can only rely on the lights you're introducing potential system failure and you must establish another mechanism to know if the gear is down; such as a way of realising there's extra drag or something). Then when I'm turning final I do a PUF check (Prop full fine, Undercarriage is up for the water landing, Flaps down). On very short final I say the phrase again "This is a water landing so the undercarriage is up to land on the water".
With around 300 water landings under my belt I consider myself still in the early phases of learning this water flying craft thoroughly, but I've never once commenced the landing sequence and put the gear in the wrong position (or left it down after take off from a hard surface and flown to a water landing site then realised it's still down).
I think what Chuck says is true, you have an absolute reposonsibility to your passengers, yourself and your craft to be 100% on this. It just has to be treated the same as other critical checks such as water in your fuel, or fuel quantity for the intended flight. There's really no excuse, if you're flying an amphib, be it floats or hull, you have to have a very thorough process for checking and cross checking yourself.
Ren
Last edited by RenegadeMan; 31st Jan 2010 at 12:15. Reason: spelling/grammar mistake
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renegade your system is spot on.. stick to it.
now go and do 7 water and 6 land a day in all sorts of combinations at all sorts of ALA,s with all sorts of weather and 4 radios going plus pax tapping you on the shoulder etc etc for 5 days a week and 12 months straight and then ask yourself if you treated every one of them the same.. hopefully you did..!!
Everyone I spoke to that did crash or got away with it, had all done their checks perfectly.. or so they thought ... therein is the lesson I reckon..
I have not F****d it up either .. but you are only as good as your last...
I could be the one in the news tomorrow..!
now go and do 7 water and 6 land a day in all sorts of combinations at all sorts of ALA,s with all sorts of weather and 4 radios going plus pax tapping you on the shoulder etc etc for 5 days a week and 12 months straight and then ask yourself if you treated every one of them the same.. hopefully you did..!!
Everyone I spoke to that did crash or got away with it, had all done their checks perfectly.. or so they thought ... therein is the lesson I reckon..
I have not F****d it up either .. but you are only as good as your last...
I could be the one in the news tomorrow..!
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yep, "there but for the grace of God go I".
None of us can ever be cast iron guranteed perfect.
Any of us can be "that guy that forgot the gear....." and have to live with it forevermore (or "it" be associated with our name forevermore if we're no longer here)
part of the "never get complacent or take any of it for granted" deal me thinks.
None of us can ever be cast iron guranteed perfect.
Any of us can be "that guy that forgot the gear....." and have to live with it forevermore (or "it" be associated with our name forevermore if we're no longer here)
part of the "never get complacent or take any of it for granted" deal me thinks.
