Pilatus Porters in Oz , PNG + NZ
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilatus Porters in Oz , PNG + NZ
On another thread some of the boys were asking about flying the Pilatus Porter , I'm sure there are a few civilian and military pilots here that have flown the Porter and could post a few stories and pics.
It's been 10 years since I flew one now but the Porter is still one of my favorite aircraft.
The one I flew started life as A14-689
Pilatus Turbo Porter A14-689 PC-6/B1-H2 built in 1968 was my first ever 'warbird' other than a couple of pax flights in a Stearman and a SNJ owned by some friends of mine
I used to fly for a skydiving club and when the boys were looking for a new aircraft I suggested the Porter as the Australian Army was retiring them at the time
It was purchased in 1993 by a group within the skydiving club and flew skydivers in South Australia , Victoria and New South Wales still wearing its Army Camo paint job before being sold for twice what they paid for it in 2001 (it's now in France with a 'pimp my ride' paint job).
In this photo you can see the Porter wearing both it's military dash (A14-689) and it's civilian registration VH-MKT (initials of some of the owners)
I did my endorsement with a CAA examiner who had 5,000 hrs on type with the military, he signed me off after 3.5hrs of dual , highlights of the endorsement were a max power take off , bringing the engine up to full power while being held on the brakes with the stick way back , with just 2 of us on board I would guess the tires did 10 revolutions before we were off the ground (we had a headwind also) and doing practice engine failures down to landing on the runway at Edinburgh AFB in Adelaide South Australia.
Most flights were to 12,000ft for meat bombing but we did a couple to 18,000ft on oxygen.
With a full load of 10 skydivers and pilot it would take 15 to 20 mins to get to 12,000ft depending on the temperature (A14-689 had the small PT6A-20 engine not the -27 in the later models) but coming down was FUN ! Drop the skydivers out the RHS sliding door at 70kts, bring the power back to flight idle, 90 deg diving turn to the left , 38 deg nose down , 120kts and let the prop act like a huge speed brake to enter downwind at 10,000ft with the rate of descent around 6,000fpm, turn on to base at 6,000ft , finals at 3,000ft and let the ground rush up at you until around 200' put on a bit of power to take the prop out of it's slight beta setting at idle bleed off speed to 60kts and touch down in a very tail low wheeler ... it all took 2.5 mins , the skydivers are still under canopy when we were landing and we had usually got the next load on board and ready to roll when the guys we just dropped were landing.
Another interesting flight was with a 70kt wind at 12,000ft which meant I had to reverse the Porter over the drop point from a point upwind , that had everyone laughing on board.
When we got it it still had the rocket hardpoints , military radios , nice big Collins ADI which of course was all stripped out by the owners saving around 300lbs of weight.
I'll post some of my own pics later as I have to scan them first (I didnt have a digital cam in the early '90s)
Me in my flight shorts, t-shirt and parachute around 1993 it was over 40 deg C that day on the dusty plains outside of Adelaide South Australia (Lower Light)
Are the other 2 ex Army Porters that went into skydiving ops still flying in Oz ?
Anyone else with some Porter stories or pics please post away
It's been 10 years since I flew one now but the Porter is still one of my favorite aircraft.
The one I flew started life as A14-689
In January 1968 the RAAF serial prefix A14 was allocated to the Porter, with the last three digits of the constructor's number completing the aircraft serial number. All aircraft were ferried to Australia with Swiss civil registrations, with the first aircraft, A14-652, being received at RAAF Amberley on 9 February 1968. The Army accepted the first four aircraft (A14-652, 653, -661 and -662) on 16 February, and held an official handover on 10 May 1968. The new aircraft demonstrated a startling short take-off and landing (STOL) capability, which proved ideal for inserting SAS patrols into strips less than 150 metres (500 feet) long.
Two more aircraft, A14-680 and A14-681, were received in October 1968, followed by the remainder of the order over that December and January. These eight aircraft were serialled between A14-683 and A14-693. A fifteenth Porter, A14-701, was delivered in May 1969. During 1969 the Army allocated these aircraft consecutive serials A14-301 to A14-315, but this change was never implemented.
The Porter was flown on operations in Vietnam by No 161 Independent Reconnaissance Flight, and during operations A14-686 was shot down near the Australian Task Force at Nui Dat in December 1969.
With 12 aircraft remaining, the Porter was officially retired on 17 October 1992,
Of the dozen Porters available for disposal, 10 were sold by CSW Associates of Essendon. The first aircraft sold was A14-705, the last Army Porter, which was registered as VH-ZCZ. The other nine aircraft were bought back by Pilatus in early 1993, with six of these being dismantled by Interair and shipped to Switzerland. Of the remaining three, two were purchased by civilian owners in Australia for sports parachuting.
http://www.airforce.gov.au/raafmuseum/research/aircraft/series3/A14.htm
Two more aircraft, A14-680 and A14-681, were received in October 1968, followed by the remainder of the order over that December and January. These eight aircraft were serialled between A14-683 and A14-693. A fifteenth Porter, A14-701, was delivered in May 1969. During 1969 the Army allocated these aircraft consecutive serials A14-301 to A14-315, but this change was never implemented.
The Porter was flown on operations in Vietnam by No 161 Independent Reconnaissance Flight, and during operations A14-686 was shot down near the Australian Task Force at Nui Dat in December 1969.
With 12 aircraft remaining, the Porter was officially retired on 17 October 1992,
Of the dozen Porters available for disposal, 10 were sold by CSW Associates of Essendon. The first aircraft sold was A14-705, the last Army Porter, which was registered as VH-ZCZ. The other nine aircraft were bought back by Pilatus in early 1993, with six of these being dismantled by Interair and shipped to Switzerland. Of the remaining three, two were purchased by civilian owners in Australia for sports parachuting.
http://www.airforce.gov.au/raafmuseum/research/aircraft/series3/A14.htm
I used to fly for a skydiving club and when the boys were looking for a new aircraft I suggested the Porter as the Australian Army was retiring them at the time
It was purchased in 1993 by a group within the skydiving club and flew skydivers in South Australia , Victoria and New South Wales still wearing its Army Camo paint job before being sold for twice what they paid for it in 2001 (it's now in France with a 'pimp my ride' paint job).
In this photo you can see the Porter wearing both it's military dash (A14-689) and it's civilian registration VH-MKT (initials of some of the owners)
I did my endorsement with a CAA examiner who had 5,000 hrs on type with the military, he signed me off after 3.5hrs of dual , highlights of the endorsement were a max power take off , bringing the engine up to full power while being held on the brakes with the stick way back , with just 2 of us on board I would guess the tires did 10 revolutions before we were off the ground (we had a headwind also) and doing practice engine failures down to landing on the runway at Edinburgh AFB in Adelaide South Australia.
Most flights were to 12,000ft for meat bombing but we did a couple to 18,000ft on oxygen.
With a full load of 10 skydivers and pilot it would take 15 to 20 mins to get to 12,000ft depending on the temperature (A14-689 had the small PT6A-20 engine not the -27 in the later models) but coming down was FUN ! Drop the skydivers out the RHS sliding door at 70kts, bring the power back to flight idle, 90 deg diving turn to the left , 38 deg nose down , 120kts and let the prop act like a huge speed brake to enter downwind at 10,000ft with the rate of descent around 6,000fpm, turn on to base at 6,000ft , finals at 3,000ft and let the ground rush up at you until around 200' put on a bit of power to take the prop out of it's slight beta setting at idle bleed off speed to 60kts and touch down in a very tail low wheeler ... it all took 2.5 mins , the skydivers are still under canopy when we were landing and we had usually got the next load on board and ready to roll when the guys we just dropped were landing.
Another interesting flight was with a 70kt wind at 12,000ft which meant I had to reverse the Porter over the drop point from a point upwind , that had everyone laughing on board.
When we got it it still had the rocket hardpoints , military radios , nice big Collins ADI which of course was all stripped out by the owners saving around 300lbs of weight.
I'll post some of my own pics later as I have to scan them first (I didnt have a digital cam in the early '90s)
Me in my flight shorts, t-shirt and parachute around 1993 it was over 40 deg C that day on the dusty plains outside of Adelaide South Australia (Lower Light)
Are the other 2 ex Army Porters that went into skydiving ops still flying in Oz ?
Anyone else with some Porter stories or pics please post away
Last edited by aseanaero; 19th Aug 2009 at 14:03.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Perth
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What an aircraft!!
I ran into two beautiful examples recently in Sorong Papua operated by Suzi Air.
They loked like they had been rebuilt but were in immaculate condition.
Nearest thing to a helicopter around I think.
I ran into two beautiful examples recently in Sorong Papua operated by Suzi Air.
They loked like they had been rebuilt but were in immaculate condition.
Nearest thing to a helicopter around I think.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The ex Australian Army Porters were a bargain.
From memory the owners group paid about A$250,000 for it and spent another $80,000 getting it on the register as there was corrosion in one of the wing struts , some minor unserviceabilities plus contribution to certification costs.
A14-689 had a TSN of about 7,500hrs and half life engine and prop.
We never had any problems with it other than a flame out caused by running the collector tank dry on descent (me flying , too much dive and too much bank) , I was on a 3,000ft final when I noticed that I was losing 'the wall of drag' at the front of the porter , looked up and saw all the engine gauges winding down , feathered the prop shut off fuel and did some S turns to get it on the runway (the Porter glides well with that big wing). Once landed it started normally and I taxied back to the fuel bowser , there was still 30 mins of fuel in the tanks.
From what i heard all of the Oz skydiving Porters experienced this at least once
We never used more than 680 deg on climb (705 limit) and never had an issue with the engine , accessories , prop.
The big military ADI/gyro arrangement died in about 6 months and they put in a standard small faced AH. The only thing that I can remember getting replaced in 2 1/2 yrs was a battery and some radios. Most starts were done off a DC GPU with a bank of massive truck batteries.
I heard it sold for US$500-$750k , don't know the exact figure
From memory the owners group paid about A$250,000 for it and spent another $80,000 getting it on the register as there was corrosion in one of the wing struts , some minor unserviceabilities plus contribution to certification costs.
A14-689 had a TSN of about 7,500hrs and half life engine and prop.
We never had any problems with it other than a flame out caused by running the collector tank dry on descent (me flying , too much dive and too much bank) , I was on a 3,000ft final when I noticed that I was losing 'the wall of drag' at the front of the porter , looked up and saw all the engine gauges winding down , feathered the prop shut off fuel and did some S turns to get it on the runway (the Porter glides well with that big wing). Once landed it started normally and I taxied back to the fuel bowser , there was still 30 mins of fuel in the tanks.
From what i heard all of the Oz skydiving Porters experienced this at least once
We never used more than 680 deg on climb (705 limit) and never had an issue with the engine , accessories , prop.
The big military ADI/gyro arrangement died in about 6 months and they put in a standard small faced AH. The only thing that I can remember getting replaced in 2 1/2 yrs was a battery and some radios. Most starts were done off a DC GPU with a bank of massive truck batteries.
I heard it sold for US$500-$750k , don't know the exact figure
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Susi Air
Hi Zeebee , the Susi Air Porters are almost new 2 to 4 yrs from memory.
YouTube - Porter Flying in Papua
Descents
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD1xBMthXBs&feature=related
Another operator tweaked their Porters beta and could descend vertically and come down in formation with the skydivers at 10,000fpm but IF it ever came out of beta they were going to go through VNE
We decided 2.5 min / 6,000fpm descents were a good enough balance between efficiency and safety !
In link 2 the descent starts at 12,000 ft (not 14,000 as it says on the video title) and thats a pretty typical ride down (except he leveled off for a moment at 1,500ft) and he took exactly 2.5 mins for the wheels to touch the runway.
You can see the prop really starting to bite the air at around 9,000ft as the air gets denser. Above 15,000ft there is very little propellor brake effect.
You can see the Porter is quite responsive when it's LIGHT and really bleeds off that excess speed before landing when you pull the nose up.
Hi Zeebee , the Susi Air Porters are almost new 2 to 4 yrs from memory.
YouTube - Porter Flying in Papua
Descents
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD1xBMthXBs&feature=related
Another operator tweaked their Porters beta and could descend vertically and come down in formation with the skydivers at 10,000fpm but IF it ever came out of beta they were going to go through VNE
We decided 2.5 min / 6,000fpm descents were a good enough balance between efficiency and safety !
In link 2 the descent starts at 12,000 ft (not 14,000 as it says on the video title) and thats a pretty typical ride down (except he leveled off for a moment at 1,500ft) and he took exactly 2.5 mins for the wheels to touch the runway.
You can see the prop really starting to bite the air at around 9,000ft as the air gets denser. Above 15,000ft there is very little propellor brake effect.
You can see the Porter is quite responsive when it's LIGHT and really bleeds off that excess speed before landing when you pull the nose up.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mozzie , I checked the CASA register tonight and couldn't find any using the search function . Does that mean VH-ZCZ is also gone ?
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I followed a link from wikipedia and found this : Pilatus Porter Current Status - www.pc-6.com
not sure how comprehensive it is though
not sure how comprehensive it is though
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
689 is now in France
PC-6 History s/n 689
Thanks for that
The website dates for 689 being sold to Switzerland look correct as I last flew it Nov 29 1998 at Cessnock, NSW and it shows it being sold in 2001
PC-6 History s/n 689
Thanks for that
The website dates for 689 being sold to Switzerland look correct as I last flew it Nov 29 1998 at Cessnock, NSW and it shows it being sold in 2001
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Melbourne,Vic,Australia
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Another operator tweaked their Porters beta and could descend vertically and come down in formation with the skydivers at 10,000fpm but IF it ever came out of beta they were going to go through VNE
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also interesting if it doesn't come out of beta. IIRC this happened down south once.
I didn't see too much of Jim's Porter , it came to SA once and they 'demonstrated' their 10,000fpm 'dive of death' and then leveling off at 2,000' and flying a circuit so they actually took longer to get down. It looked pretty cool though , that porter would circle a formation of skydivers on the way down.
I also asked some engineers and they said the PT6A-20 wasn't designed for 90 deg descent.
Last edited by aseanaero; 20th Aug 2009 at 01:31.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do the local Indon pilots still huff away on Gudang Garams while reading the Jakarta Post
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just checked pc6.com (link posted by Mozzie) and VH-ZCZ was sold to Canada in the mid 90's and was resold and is now based in Rome.
Looks like there's only 1 left in Australia which is flyable VH-OWB at the Army Aviation Museum.
There was a lot of Porters in Indonesia operated by Merpati and the Dept of Agriculture , I tried to track down any unflyable Porters here but the Merpati airframes and spares were sold or scrapped years ago and the Agriculture Porters I am told what was left of them was purchased by Susi Air for spares a couple of years ago. I was looking for the Dept of Ag Porters as recently as 2 months ago and went up to Kalijati Air Base specifically to see for myself whether they still existed.
The STOL performance of these aircraft is incredible , I landed at Lower Light one day with no headwind with just me on board dragging it in on finals just above stall and then used reverse after touch down , we paced out the tyre tracks and it was approx 85 metres.
Looks like there's only 1 left in Australia which is flyable VH-OWB at the Army Aviation Museum.
There was a lot of Porters in Indonesia operated by Merpati and the Dept of Agriculture , I tried to track down any unflyable Porters here but the Merpati airframes and spares were sold or scrapped years ago and the Agriculture Porters I am told what was left of them was purchased by Susi Air for spares a couple of years ago. I was looking for the Dept of Ag Porters as recently as 2 months ago and went up to Kalijati Air Base specifically to see for myself whether they still existed.
The STOL performance of these aircraft is incredible , I landed at Lower Light one day with no headwind with just me on board dragging it in on finals just above stall and then used reverse after touch down , we paced out the tyre tracks and it was approx 85 metres.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
YouTube - Porter Dive Compilation
YouTube - Plane 2 Plane stunt
Plenty of exit stuff on youtube to show what the descent looks like from outside.
The only ones I saw in PNG had already been parked up permanently in the bush. Would have loved to have flown one though.
YouTube - Plane 2 Plane stunt
Plenty of exit stuff on youtube to show what the descent looks like from outside.
The only ones I saw in PNG had already been parked up permanently in the bush. Would have loved to have flown one though.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Great Southern Land
Age: 57
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't want to start any arguments, that's already been done in other threads like Army out of fixed wing...
I haven't run this past any AAAvn mates, but can't help wondering if the Army could benefit once again from having a cheap'n'cheerful FW system like the PC-6 or the 750XL? These types don't carry as much as an S-70, for argument's sake, and don't carry it as fast, and can't do what a helicopter can do - but blimey! At a fraction of the cost of an S-70? Seems like a no brainer.
Just a thought.
I haven't run this past any AAAvn mates, but can't help wondering if the Army could benefit once again from having a cheap'n'cheerful FW system like the PC-6 or the 750XL? These types don't carry as much as an S-70, for argument's sake, and don't carry it as fast, and can't do what a helicopter can do - but blimey! At a fraction of the cost of an S-70? Seems like a no brainer.
Just a thought.
Silly Old Git
P2-SEA ex P2-PNG parked at POM after having the Macair green painted over .
Note the 402 still in screaming ****ehawk livery.
P2-SEA - Papua New Guinea Aviation
Note the 402 still in screaming ****ehawk livery.
P2-SEA - Papua New Guinea Aviation
I haven't run this past any AAAvn mates, but can't help wondering if the Army could benefit once again from having a cheap'n'cheerful FW system like the PC-6 or the 750XL? These types don't carry as much as an S-70, for argument's sake, and don't carry it as fast, and can't do what a helicopter can do - but blimey! At a fraction of the cost of an S-70? Seems like a no brainer.
As time goes on the ADF seems to be loosing any light tactical air transport capability it once had. Perfect for high-vel A21 containers, heliboxes etc. when ammunition and supplies are needed in a hurry. Can operate from just about anywhere with far smaller logistical tail than Helos.Great thread Asean
How does the Porter compare to a Van for meat bombing? Is the Van more efficient?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Porter vs Caravan ?
How does the Porter compare to a Van for meat bombing? Is the Van more efficient?
For the Porter we were dropping 10 skydivers to 12,000ft in 20 to 25 mins wheels off to landing depending on temperature , the -20 in the B1-H2 was severely temp limited in temps over 40deg C and would really struggle to get airborne with a full load , from memory you were lucky to get 28psi of torque in hot weather compared to 38.5psi torque limit . I can only remember a couple of cold days where were torque limited .
[Note : limits per the book are 705 climb , 750 deg TIT / 42.5psi max power , we had operator set limits of 680 deg (top of the green arc) and 38.5psi , on a really hot day we'd bump it up to 705 and then back off to 680 once established on climb ]
For me it really gets back to what you pay for the aircraft , the ex Oz Army Porters were super bargains (A$300,000 to $350,000) compared to a Caravan at around $900k to $1 million so in that situation the Porter would win. If you were paying the same money as a Caravan I think the Caravan would be a better proposition as I think they can carry more skydivers.
As I mentioned before the Porter was extremely reliable with only avionics problems and a battery as unscheduled maintenace and again I don't know enough about the Caravan but it's more complex and has electric flaps compared to the Porters manual crank out flaps.
Caravan guys , how do the numbers compare ?
Last edited by aseanaero; 20th Aug 2009 at 13:23.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
Age: 61
Posts: 781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Owen,
How many meaties can you put in a Caravan and what was the time to 12,000ft , descent time and total time for a load ?
How many meaties can you put in a Caravan and what was the time to 12,000ft , descent time and total time for a load ?