Wide Bay airshow
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Here's the image, I didn't have the camera out with the right lens on just when it happened, otherwise I would have tried to get it in action which might have helped RA-Aus and the pilot learn from this unfortunate, totally unnecessary and surely very expensive and embarrassing mistake..
For the photography afficionados out there (and judging from the amount of really big lenses at the show there are quite a few of us out there, and no, I'm not compensating for anything
), taken with a Canon image stabilised 100-400 zoom on a Canon 20D, which hasn't got the full frame chip so the 400 becomes like a 640, which tells us that I was a fair way away 
For the photography afficionados out there (and judging from the amount of really big lenses at the show there are quite a few of us out there, and no, I'm not compensating for anything
), taken with a Canon image stabilised 100-400 zoom on a Canon 20D, which hasn't got the full frame chip so the 400 becomes like a 640, which tells us that I was a fair way away
Last edited by PlankBlender; 5th Jul 2009 at 21:05.
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Supposedly the pilot (aircraft designer) loaded too much crap on board with little regard for C of G. That's what you do in ultralights apprarently, just load it up in the back until it feels like it's too heavy or when you realise that you can't take off or land because you don't have enough elevator authority. If such rumours are true and that was a GA machine, many questions would be asked.
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XXX, from what I can decipher from the original photos it's not a VH rego. Can you register a Cheetah VH? Honest question.
Can you back up the speculation about the loading? Do you mean luggage or instruments? Why was he the designer? Was he the actual designer of the Cheetah model? That would genuinely shock me! Or do you mean he was the builder/pilot?
I would be very surprised if that contributed to the accident. He (making an assumption here, most women I think would have had the sense to go around) was simply so fast and obviously flustered that he had no chance of putting her down in a controlled fashion during that approach.
All the pushing and shoving he did to bore the machine in seems to suggest he wouldn't have had too much weight in the back, he did manage to point the nose at the ground quite spectacularly a few times
and AFAIK there's not a lot of front stowage in a Cheetah..
Can you back up the speculation about the loading? Do you mean luggage or instruments? Why was he the designer? Was he the actual designer of the Cheetah model? That would genuinely shock me! Or do you mean he was the builder/pilot?
I would be very surprised if that contributed to the accident. He (making an assumption here, most women I think would have had the sense to go around
) was simply so fast and obviously flustered that he had no chance of putting her down in a controlled fashion during that approach. All the pushing and shoving he did to bore the machine in seems to suggest he wouldn't have had too much weight in the back, he did manage to point the nose at the ground quite spectacularly a few times
and AFAIK there's not a lot of front stowage in a Cheetah..
Plank Bender,
You are sounding again like sometime out of your league. You weren't in the aircraft, you probably have never flown the type, you don't know how it was loaded . Trying to comment on it, and 'take action shots' to help the pilot learn.makes you sound very condescending. I tell ya what, if I had an accident and you came over with your camera to show me where I went wrong, from that point on, you'd need to sit down to take a photo. And women go around more than men? I can't believe you even made that comment, then again, maybe I can...
You're building yourself a very tall pedestal Plank
j3
You are sounding again like sometime out of your league. You weren't in the aircraft, you probably have never flown the type, you don't know how it was loaded . Trying to comment on it, and 'take action shots' to help the pilot learn.makes you sound very condescending. I tell ya what, if I had an accident and you came over with your camera to show me where I went wrong, from that point on, you'd need to sit down to take a photo. And women go around more than men? I can't believe you even made that comment, then again, maybe I can...
You're building yourself a very tall pedestal Plank
j3
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j3, you make me laugh 
From your recent posts it seems you've made it your pet project to put me in my place, or league if you will. Good on ya, keep going, makes you come across as mature for your age, shows you've got a purpose in life that really means something.
More power to you, the industry really needs figures like you!
You have no idea what league I play in. How and why would you? It's an anonymous platform, after all. Most of the people are here to share knowledge, ideas, rumours and speculation. Really, if you can't produce anything productive, you might just as well zip it, 'cause you're only producing hot air and making a nuisance of yourself. And as for the veiled threat of violence, reaaaaaaaally
didn't your mum teach you that resorting to violence in any form is really only a sign that you've run out of arguments?
Get a
life!
From your recent posts it seems you've made it your pet project to put me in my place, or league if you will. Good on ya, keep going, makes you come across as mature for your age, shows you've got a purpose in life that really means something.
More power to you, the industry really needs figures like you! You have no idea what league I play in. How and why would you? It's an anonymous platform, after all. Most of the people are here to share knowledge, ideas, rumours and speculation. Really, if you can't produce anything productive, you might just as well zip it, 'cause you're only producing hot air and making a nuisance of yourself. And as for the veiled threat of violence, reaaaaaaaally
didn't your mum teach you that resorting to violence in any form is really only a sign that you've run out of arguments? Get a
life!
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J3 is not the only one on a crusade here! There is definitely a trend to your posts and if you are as experienced as you attempt to lead us to believe, that trend is of complete ignorance. If you are not experienced, you can be forgiven for your oversights and enthusiasm to discover the wealth of information that is aviation. J3, don't stress mate, the holidays will be over shortly.
Now, I'll post again for Mr Plank so he understands (he's a bit slow as he only got his instrument rating last year) as when I said "designer" it obviously wasn't clear enough for him. The aircraft was allegedly being flown by the designer / builder / manufacturer / guy who makes them & sells them. The word on the street is that is was loaded in a way in which it significantly affected the C of G. The aircraft was a Morgan SIERRA (not a Cheetah), no doubt loaded with baggage and or manufacturer paraphernalia or similar for the weekend gathering.
My comments regarding GA registration were moreso about what would happen IF it had been GA registered versus the RA rego that it actually was. What I mean is how much trouble would we get into in the GA world if an incorrectly loaded aircraft caused us to crash, not to mention insurance issues etc
PS: You can register almost ANY aircraft as GA if you want to.
Now, I'll post again for Mr Plank so he understands (he's a bit slow as he only got his instrument rating last year) as when I said "designer" it obviously wasn't clear enough for him. The aircraft was allegedly being flown by the designer / builder / manufacturer / guy who makes them & sells them. The word on the street is that is was loaded in a way in which it significantly affected the C of G. The aircraft was a Morgan SIERRA (not a Cheetah), no doubt loaded with baggage and or manufacturer paraphernalia or similar for the weekend gathering.
My comments regarding GA registration were moreso about what would happen IF it had been GA registered versus the RA rego that it actually was. What I mean is how much trouble would we get into in the GA world if an incorrectly loaded aircraft caused us to crash, not to mention insurance issues etc
PS: You can register almost ANY aircraft as GA if you want to.
Last edited by VH-XXX; 6th Jul 2009 at 04:36.
PB,
Hey. I think you'll find it's not just me that wants to put you in' your' place, have your earlier post about BK slipped your mind ? But you're right, it's just me...
I do know the sort of league you're in, you're a PPL aircraft owner that somehow thinks that owning a S/E piston makes your opinion able to be broadcast to the world, whether it is informed or needed, this case is a prime example. But hey, who am I to have a go at how you , it's just my opinion too huh? Well ok, I'll leave you alone from now on.
Your critique about the Bundy Airshow were really quite good, but you took it too far by harping on about the accident and how you wished you could have taken action shots to educate the pilot? That is niether your right or place.
I don't have a problem with most of your posts PB, just the ones that have undertones of amatuer accident investigation, where you infer you could do better.
j3
Hey. I think you'll find it's not just me that wants to put you in' your' place, have your earlier post about BK slipped your mind ? But you're right, it's just me...
I do know the sort of league you're in, you're a PPL aircraft owner that somehow thinks that owning a S/E piston makes your opinion able to be broadcast to the world, whether it is informed or needed, this case is a prime example. But hey, who am I to have a go at how you , it's just my opinion too huh? Well ok, I'll leave you alone from now on.
Your critique about the Bundy Airshow were really quite good, but you took it too far by harping on about the accident and how you wished you could have taken action shots to educate the pilot? That is niether your right or place.
I don't have a problem with most of your posts PB, just the ones that have undertones of amatuer accident investigation, where you infer you could do better.
j3
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XXX, I won't bite on your personal comments, not really interested in getting into that sort of discussion.
I appreciate your experience and knowledge as I do everyone else's here, although I admit it's sometimes hard to separate actual knowledge and facts from the quality BS some people spread here..
As per the facts, maybe you can help the discussion along here: As witnessed first hand, the pilot's speed was clearly excessive -- he floated down more than half the 3700 foot runway -- and he then proceeded to push down the nose repeatedly after each balloon, again clearly a sign of excess energy, resulting in the nose wheel breakage.
Now if he was critically out of aft CofG, how would he have been able to push the nose down like that? We're talking from a steep nose high attitude in the balloon to an equally steep nose down attitude that looked very much pilot induced and not a result of the aircraft's dynamic stability. Again I'm presuming here that he wasn't out of forward CofG as it looks it would be hard to overload this model forward.
Also, if he indeed was out of aft CofG, wouldn't the resulting nose high attitude and limited ability to correct this with elevator eventually have stalled him as the speed bled off, really helping him to land her assuming he wasn't high at the point of stall?
Honest questions here, I'm certainly not saying I know it all, but I think I understand the basics of aerodynamics and performance/loading, so if there's something wrong in that basic understanding, I'd appreciate candid comments so I can correct my thinking.
Let me say again, I am really just asking for factual explanations here, so if we could all stick to that it'd make reading these posts easier, in any case I won't bite on any further accusations/put-downs/personal comments like the one j3 just posted, honestly who do you think you are with your wild assumptions and accusations, it's unnecessary, childish, and boring
I appreciate your experience and knowledge as I do everyone else's here, although I admit it's sometimes hard to separate actual knowledge and facts from the quality BS some people spread here..
As per the facts, maybe you can help the discussion along here: As witnessed first hand, the pilot's speed was clearly excessive -- he floated down more than half the 3700 foot runway -- and he then proceeded to push down the nose repeatedly after each balloon, again clearly a sign of excess energy, resulting in the nose wheel breakage.
Now if he was critically out of aft CofG, how would he have been able to push the nose down like that? We're talking from a steep nose high attitude in the balloon to an equally steep nose down attitude that looked very much pilot induced and not a result of the aircraft's dynamic stability. Again I'm presuming here that he wasn't out of forward CofG as it looks it would be hard to overload this model forward.
Also, if he indeed was out of aft CofG, wouldn't the resulting nose high attitude and limited ability to correct this with elevator eventually have stalled him as the speed bled off, really helping him to land her assuming he wasn't high at the point of stall?
Honest questions here, I'm certainly not saying I know it all, but I think I understand the basics of aerodynamics and performance/loading, so if there's something wrong in that basic understanding, I'd appreciate candid comments so I can correct my thinking.
Let me say again, I am really just asking for factual explanations here, so if we could all stick to that it'd make reading these posts easier, in any case I won't bite on any further accusations/put-downs/personal comments like the one j3 just posted, honestly who do you think you are with your wild assumptions and accusations, it's unnecessary, childish, and boring
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I wasn't there, however when you are thinking back about what you saw, think to yourself not only about the elevator authority, C of G and speed, but also the effect of Power on the elevator, meaning increased airflow over the elevator surface when the engine is delivering power thus making the control surface more effective.
Eg. You are really heavy towards the rear, you are giving it full forward elevator, but it's not working well at low speed, so therefore you are applying power to lower the nose. What happens to the aoa / approach profile when you apply power then decrease it? It's not going to go well is it? You'd be flaring by reducing throttle. I can't see that ending nicely.
This gel with what you witnessed?
Eg. You are really heavy towards the rear, you are giving it full forward elevator, but it's not working well at low speed, so therefore you are applying power to lower the nose. What happens to the aoa / approach profile when you apply power then decrease it? It's not going to go well is it? You'd be flaring by reducing throttle. I can't see that ending nicely.
This gel with what you witnessed?
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XXX, I'm quietly wondering what motivates you to continually have a go at others here, and I am sure people who might know you might entertain similar thoughts, but anyway, really no point going into it
Thanks for the earlier input, though, interesting thought, however from what I saw I don't think it applies. He did pass me on the initial float no more than 100-150 meters away, and I remember not hearing the engine.. I know that these smaller donks don't make much noise, and I might not have been able to hear it due to wind direction, strength, other ambient noise, etc., but from what I remember it just sounded, looked, and felt like a fast float..
Anyway, with that we're certainly in speculation land so for what it's worth, we're going to put it down as two theories of what might have happened, and unless the pilot cares to chip in or someone offers another explanation, we'll probably have to leave it at that
Thanks for the earlier input, though, interesting thought, however from what I saw I don't think it applies. He did pass me on the initial float no more than 100-150 meters away, and I remember not hearing the engine.. I know that these smaller donks don't make much noise, and I might not have been able to hear it due to wind direction, strength, other ambient noise, etc., but from what I remember it just sounded, looked, and felt like a fast float..
Anyway, with that we're certainly in speculation land so for what it's worth, we're going to put it down as two theories of what might have happened, and unless the pilot cares to chip in or someone offers another explanation, we'll probably have to leave it at that
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I thought as I read your engine comments that you were leading into an engine failure scenario. Phew!
Those people, find it as amusing as I do!
and I am sure people who might know you might entertain similar thoughts
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Gotta love the aeroclub/weekend warrior boffins getting all sanctimonious.
i can just imagine you strutting about in all the gear. Telling your "war stories" of who said what on the radio..sheesh
i can just imagine you strutting about in all the gear. Telling your "war stories" of who said what on the radio..sheesh
and unless the pilot cares to chip in or someone offers another explanation