Irex Question
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Irex Question
Here is a question that I just can't figure out:
The minimum instrument time in aeroplanes within the last 90 days required by a pilot with a Command Instrument Rating to ac as pilot in command on a single pilot IFR flight in an aeroplane would be -
[a] Single - pilot operations - 1 hour ICUS instrument time on any IFR aircraft including one instrument approach.
[b] Single - pilot operations - 1 hour ICUS instrument flight time in an aircraft certified for single - pilot operation, including one instrument approach.
[c] Single - pilot operations - 1 hour PIC instrument flight time in an aircraft certified for single - pilot operations, including one instrument approach.
[d] Single - pilot operations - 1 hours PIC instrument time on an approved synthetic trainer including one instrument approach.
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No I have ruled out [a] and [d] straight away as they don't include the 'in an aircraft certified for single pilot operations' as in CAO 40.2.1.11.5. I can't for the life of me though see a difference between [b] and [c] as CAO states that both 1 hour PIC and 1 hour ICUS in either an aircraft or synthetic flight trainer with one instrument approach is sufficient for recency. Any ideas???
The minimum instrument time in aeroplanes within the last 90 days required by a pilot with a Command Instrument Rating to ac as pilot in command on a single pilot IFR flight in an aeroplane would be -
[a] Single - pilot operations - 1 hour ICUS instrument time on any IFR aircraft including one instrument approach.
[b] Single - pilot operations - 1 hour ICUS instrument flight time in an aircraft certified for single - pilot operation, including one instrument approach.
[c] Single - pilot operations - 1 hour PIC instrument flight time in an aircraft certified for single - pilot operations, including one instrument approach.
[d] Single - pilot operations - 1 hours PIC instrument time on an approved synthetic trainer including one instrument approach.
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No I have ruled out [a] and [d] straight away as they don't include the 'in an aircraft certified for single pilot operations' as in CAO 40.2.1.11.5. I can't for the life of me though see a difference between [b] and [c] as CAO states that both 1 hour PIC and 1 hour ICUS in either an aircraft or synthetic flight trainer with one instrument approach is sufficient for recency. Any ideas???
The answer is B.
You are recent if you fly one hour ICUS and an approach.
Flying PIC requires 3 hrs IF, of which one has to be flown in an aircraft. ie the other 2 can be done in a synthetic trainer. (+ an approach).
Or the only other possible way to be recent single pilot is to have completed a renewal or initial issue.
You are recent if you fly one hour ICUS and an approach.
Flying PIC requires 3 hrs IF, of which one has to be flown in an aircraft. ie the other 2 can be done in a synthetic trainer. (+ an approach).
Or the only other possible way to be recent single pilot is to have completed a renewal or initial issue.
Last edited by Fonz121; 26th Jun 2009 at 23:28. Reason: wording
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I would agree, the answer is B.
If the 1 hour IF as a single-pilot op is conducted ICUS then you do not require anything further to be completely current (i.e. no requirement for another 2 hours IF), but if you conduct the 1 hour as PIC, you still have to satisfy 2 more IF hours in-flight or in a synthetic trainer to be current.
The other requirement that isn't mentioned in the question is the 1 hour IF has to be conducted as a single-pilot operation, not just in an aircraft certified for SP ops.
If the 1 hour IF as a single-pilot op is conducted ICUS then you do not require anything further to be completely current (i.e. no requirement for another 2 hours IF), but if you conduct the 1 hour as PIC, you still have to satisfy 2 more IF hours in-flight or in a synthetic trainer to be current.
The other requirement that isn't mentioned in the question is the 1 hour IF has to be conducted as a single-pilot operation, not just in an aircraft certified for SP ops.
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Beware of exactly these questions in the IREX, I stumbled over a very similar one when I did mine last year.
I had sufficient time and this particular question I took apart word for word and checked against the regs, and still got it wrong. I got a 85% pass anyway, and was quite comfortable looking at the air law type questions, but that one had me stumped. It totally read like it should have come out with the option that said something along the lines of 'no further instrument flight time needed', but it clearly wasn't..
The situation presented was one of a single engine IFR pilot with an hour of instrument flight time under his belt in the required time plus other instrument time, and the formulation was about 'additional instrument flight time', not 'instrument time', so beware of the exact question, it's easy to answer the wrong question correctly
!
I had sufficient time and this particular question I took apart word for word and checked against the regs, and still got it wrong. I got a 85% pass anyway, and was quite comfortable looking at the air law type questions, but that one had me stumped. It totally read like it should have come out with the option that said something along the lines of 'no further instrument flight time needed', but it clearly wasn't..
The situation presented was one of a single engine IFR pilot with an hour of instrument flight time under his belt in the required time plus other instrument time, and the formulation was about 'additional instrument flight time', not 'instrument time', so beware of the exact question, it's easy to answer the wrong question correctly
!
The answer is B.
You are recent if you fly one hour ICUS and an approach.
Flying PIC requires 3 hrs IF, of which one has to be flown in an aircraft. ie the other 2 can be done in a synthetic trainer. (+ an approach).
Or the only other possible way to be recent single pilot is to have completed a renewal or initial issue.
You are recent if you fly one hour ICUS and an approach.
Flying PIC requires 3 hrs IF, of which one has to be flown in an aircraft. ie the other 2 can be done in a synthetic trainer. (+ an approach).
Or the only other possible way to be recent single pilot is to have completed a renewal or initial issue.
Agree on B. You can also achieve currency by flying one hour IF with an instructor. (I guess this could be construed as ICUS), including an approach.
I was under the impression that dual time (with an instructor) was not applicable to single pilot operations.
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Agree on B. You can also achieve currency by flying one hour IF with an instructor. (I guess this could be construed as ICUS), including an approach.
If there's any instruction given (instructor rating or not) then the flight can't be logged as ICUS in the first place.
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yeah ICUS doesn't have to be an instructor, as long as the right hand seat guy has a cpl and an IR then I think its fine.
A few colleagues and I had a discussion a while back about whether you can log ICUS when you're out of currency - i.e. fly out of currency with a current pilot as PIC/safety pilot, and log it as ICUS. Same question applies to NVFR currency. Don't see why you can't - you can't log it as dual unless the other person's an instructor - doesn't leave you with many columns except co-pilot.
Two points -
There's a big difference between single-engine, and single-pilot.
Also, you cannot act In Command Under Supervision if you are not current/recent to fly in command. If you're acting in command, you need to be able to act in command, regardless of who's supervising you. The supervising pilot needs to also be legally able to be PIC - so just a CPL and IR is not enough - they need to be current, recent, and endorsed on the aircraft, too.
Zapp - if you're not current to do the flight, you're right - you cant log as PIC, but you also cant log it as ICUS. If your currency has expired, it has to be dual - no other option.
There's a big difference between single-engine, and single-pilot.
Also, you cannot act In Command Under Supervision if you are not current/recent to fly in command. If you're acting in command, you need to be able to act in command, regardless of who's supervising you. The supervising pilot needs to also be legally able to be PIC - so just a CPL and IR is not enough - they need to be current, recent, and endorsed on the aircraft, too.
Zapp - if you're not current to do the flight, you're right - you cant log as PIC, but you also cant log it as ICUS. If your currency has expired, it has to be dual - no other option.
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Zapp - if you're not current to do the flight, you're right - you cant log as PIC, but you also cant log it as ICUS. If your currency has expired, it has to be dual - no other option.
No, you can't, because you're not current.
Refer CAR 5.40 below, but if you are required to hold an instrument rating to undertake the flight, and you have an instrument rating that is not current, then you do not have a rating that permits you to undertake the flight.
Dont forget, though, that if its just your 90 day currency that's expired - you can do your approaches, and up to two hours flight time, in a synthetic flight trainer.
Refer CAR 5.40 below, but if you are required to hold an instrument rating to undertake the flight, and you have an instrument rating that is not current, then you do not have a rating that permits you to undertake the flight.
CAR 5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision
(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under
supervision only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot
licence; or
(i) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were
a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot
licence; and
(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorises
him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a
flight crew rating is required — the person holds a flight
crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits
him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of
the aircraft concerned; and
(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft; and
(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the
aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision; and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the
purpose by the operator of the aircraft.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) The operator of an aircraft may permit a person to fly an
aircraft as pilot acting in command only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence, or an air transport pilot
licence, that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft;
or
(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were
such a licence; and
(b) the person holds an endorsement that authorises him or her
to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person carries out an activity for which a flight crew
rating is required — the person holds a flight crew rating,
or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to
carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft
concerned.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(3) An offence against subregulation (1) or (2) is an offence of
strict liability.
(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under
supervision only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot
licence; or
(i) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were
a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot
licence; and
(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorises
him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a
flight crew rating is required — the person holds a flight
crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits
him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of
the aircraft concerned; and
(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft; and
(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the
aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision; and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the
purpose by the operator of the aircraft.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) The operator of an aircraft may permit a person to fly an
aircraft as pilot acting in command only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence, or an air transport pilot
licence, that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft;
or
(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were
such a licence; and
(b) the person holds an endorsement that authorises him or her
to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person carries out an activity for which a flight crew
rating is required — the person holds a flight crew rating,
or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to
carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft
concerned.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(3) An offence against subregulation (1) or (2) is an offence of
strict liability.
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I'll accept that, I'm sure you know what you're talking about.
I've probably read that slightly differently in the past - i.e. you DO hold a flight crew rating that allows you to act as PIC (i.e. it's a command rating and you don't require a renewal) - you just don't meet the recent experience requirements (which does not change the fact you DO hold the rating, and the rating is current), and the CAOs specify the recent experience requirements as being required for PIC only. But with ICUS you are effectively PIC, just not legally PIC, so it makes sense that you have to meet the recency requirements as well. If CAR 5.40 said something about being legally able to conduct the flight as PIC, not just "hold a flight crew rating" that would permit it, then that ambiguity would have been removed in my head.
I lied, this did pop up for me a while ago, but it was NVFR currency, not IFR currency - I went up with an instructor and logged it as dual just to be sure.
Edit: just so we're on the same page, I thought I'd reinforce that I'm talking about the 90-day recency with this ICUS discussion here - I'm not talking about logging ICUS when requiring a yearly renewal (which is clearly not holding a current rating, and of course you're not allowed to fly IFR in any capacity except dual).
I've probably read that slightly differently in the past - i.e. you DO hold a flight crew rating that allows you to act as PIC (i.e. it's a command rating and you don't require a renewal) - you just don't meet the recent experience requirements (which does not change the fact you DO hold the rating, and the rating is current), and the CAOs specify the recent experience requirements as being required for PIC only. But with ICUS you are effectively PIC, just not legally PIC, so it makes sense that you have to meet the recency requirements as well. If CAR 5.40 said something about being legally able to conduct the flight as PIC, not just "hold a flight crew rating" that would permit it, then that ambiguity would have been removed in my head.
I lied, this did pop up for me a while ago, but it was NVFR currency, not IFR currency - I went up with an instructor and logged it as dual just to be sure.
Edit: just so we're on the same page, I thought I'd reinforce that I'm talking about the 90-day recency with this ICUS discussion here - I'm not talking about logging ICUS when requiring a yearly renewal (which is clearly not holding a current rating, and of course you're not allowed to fly IFR in any capacity except dual).
Want to open a can of worms?
Get a PRIVATE IFR rating, and you can go flying by yourself, as PIC, on a private flight, when your Command IR is out of currency, and get yourself re-current all by yourself.
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Agreed, but there is no difference in not being allowed to fly IFR in any capacity except dual, because your rating has expired, or because your rating is not current.
Want to open a can of worms?
Get a PRIVATE IFR rating, and you can go flying by yourself, as PIC, on a private flight, when your Command IR is out of currency, and get yourself re-current all by yourself.
Want to open a can of worms?
Get a PRIVATE IFR rating, and you can go flying by yourself, as PIC, on a private flight, when your Command IR is out of currency, and get yourself re-current all by yourself.
Yep, that does sound like a can of worms. Silly question - if you've got a PIFR rating, do you fly under a standard IFR flight plan? I've never bothered to figure out what the PIFR rating is all about. The CAOs say "The holder of a command instrument rating shall not act as pilot in command of an aircraft on an I.F.R. flight unless the recent experience requirements of this subsection are satisfied" blah blah... which sounds like one of those weird backward legal situations where holding a CIR means you can't exercise the privileges of a PIFR rating even if you're PIFR-current. I'm sure you can, but it's good enough for another 5 page argument.
Like another version of "if you hold a CPL but have never held a PPL, can you fly a PVT category flight with a Class 2 (i.e. expired Class 1) medical certificate?" - because you require a Class 1 to exercise the privileges of a CPL, which include private flying. Don't answer that one, don't want to completely hijack the thread.
ICUS is a funny fish, and I reckon a lot of people (me included) have logged ICUS that wasn't exactly ICUS. And I don't mean intentionally either - but that happens too. 
If you don't have your 90 day recency, but still hold an unexpired instrument rating, I would have thought you could do exactly as Zapp was suggesting. For CAR 5.40 as per Lasorhinus's post, you do in fact hold the rating. You can't act as PIC under the rating, due to recent experience requirements - but you hold it, until it expires.
But I can see the other side of this arguement, as per what Lasorhinus has said... Is this another case where "precident", or "accepted practice" in the industry is decisive (or which CASA office's jurisdiction you're under!)
Let me pose another hypothetical, to "support" my argument:
What about having your required general IF recency, but no ILS in the last 35 days... Then you go out, get a practice ILS when able (even on IFR revenue ops, and single pilot) and as long as you're not in IMC below MSA on the approach, you can fly it, log it - and now you can fly ILS's in IMC again for another 35 days - or can you not do that either?? (We do this when required, though usually you catch it before you actually expire, so subtly different).
Interested in anyone's ideas on that, and the differences between the two if any.
Cheers,
CR.
If you don't have your 90 day recency, but still hold an unexpired instrument rating, I would have thought you could do exactly as Zapp was suggesting. For CAR 5.40 as per Lasorhinus's post, you do in fact hold the rating. You can't act as PIC under the rating, due to recent experience requirements - but you hold it, until it expires.
But I can see the other side of this arguement, as per what Lasorhinus has said... Is this another case where "precident", or "accepted practice" in the industry is decisive (or which CASA office's jurisdiction you're under!)
Let me pose another hypothetical, to "support"
my argument:What about having your required general IF recency, but no ILS in the last 35 days... Then you go out, get a practice ILS when able (even on IFR revenue ops, and single pilot) and as long as you're not in IMC below MSA on the approach, you can fly it, log it - and now you can fly ILS's in IMC again for another 35 days - or can you not do that either?? (We do this when required, though usually you catch it before you actually expire, so subtly different).
Interested in anyone's ideas on that, and the differences between the two if any.
Cheers,
CR.
Last edited by Counter-rotation; 29th Jun 2009 at 11:38.
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Don't forget, though, that the recent experience requirements for approaches apply to the Pilot in Command
11.4 The holder of a command instrument rating shall not carry out an ILS or LLZ approach in IMC as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, within the preceding 35 days, that person has performed in flight, or in a synthetic flight trainer approved for the purpose, either one of those approaches.
If you are conducting ICUS you are obviously not the PIC, and therefore do not necessarily need to be current for a given instrument approach.