Is it ICUS when you are getting checked out by an ATO?
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Is it ICUS when you are getting checked out by an ATO?
I've heard two different opinions about this, so I'm interested in knowing what the consensus is on this.
When you're doing a flight test with an ATO (eg, MECIR renewal), do you log it as ICUS in your log book or is it dual? I'd say ICUS because the ATO isn't actually giving you any instruction so it's not dual; he/she is just an observer. Am I correct? And if that's the case, do you write SELF in the PIC column of your logbook and the ATO's name in the "other pilot" column?
When you're doing a flight test with an ATO (eg, MECIR renewal), do you log it as ICUS in your log book or is it dual? I'd say ICUS because the ATO isn't actually giving you any instruction so it's not dual; he/she is just an observer. Am I correct? And if that's the case, do you write SELF in the PIC column of your logbook and the ATO's name in the "other pilot" column?
An entirely uneducated view - but my thoughts
If you are qualified to act as PIC on the flight - i.e. you hold a valid CIR and your flight test is a renewal, then it is command not icus, as you are the captain of the flight.
I am sure that others more knowlegable will be able to prove me wrong and give you a better answer
If you are qualified to act as PIC on the flight - i.e. you hold a valid CIR and your flight test is a renewal, then it is command not icus, as you are the captain of the flight.
I am sure that others more knowlegable will be able to prove me wrong and give you a better answer
CASA had a flick through my logbook a couple of years ago and the FOI picked up on my last Chief Pilot check flight.
I had logged it as PIC (I mean... I flew... the FOI just sat there being a smart arse
) but I was told in no uncertain terms that it should have been Dual. 
As you say, there is no instruction given. Just because the guy in the RHS is telling you what to do doesn't make him PIC
I had logged it as PIC (I mean... I flew... the FOI just sat there being a smart arse
) but I was told in no uncertain terms that it should have been Dual. As you say, there is no instruction given. Just because the guy in the RHS is telling you what to do doesn't make him PIC
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Don't have a reference to hand, but always told and logged as command. Think, who signed for the aircraft, whose name is on the flight plan, and whose going to carry the can if you bend it.
If it is a renewal, the FOI/ATO does not need to be qualified on the aircraft. Ergo it must be PIC for the left seat. (At least that used to be the case. Don't know if things have changed over the last 14 years)
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then it is command not icus, as you are the captain of the flight
As you say, there is no instruction given. Just because the guy in the RHS is telling you what to do doesn't make him PIC
Think, who signed for the aircraft, whose name is on the flight plan, and whose going to carry the can if you bend it
If it is a renewal, the FOI/ATO does not need to be qualified on the aircraft. Ergo it must be PIC for the left seat
Renewal is dual if the CIR has expired. I believe it is ICUS if the CIR is still current.
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There is a difference (as discussed long ago) in NZ Law; there, every flight-test/renewal is logged as PinC with the ATO logging co-pilot -unless you fail the flight-test/renewal, in which case the candidate logs dual and the ATO PinC.
The assumption there is that, as you are being assessed for competency to act in that role, you must be assumed to be PinC. Unless you fail.
The assumption there is that, as you are being assessed for competency to act in that role, you must be assumed to be PinC. Unless you fail.
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If you can't answer this question should you even hold a rating?
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As you can see from the responses on this thread, there are varied opinions as to what should be logged. I've been told that's it's to be logged as dual, but disagree, thus the reason for my post.
Rather than give a smart arse response HH, how about you tell us how you would log this in your log book?
Rather than give a smart arse response HH, how about you tell us how you would log this in your log book?
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There is a difference (as discussed long ago) in NZ Law; there, every flight-test/renewal is logged as PinC with the ATO logging co-pilot -unless you fail the flight-test/renewal, in which case the candidate logs dual and the ATO PinC.
The assumption there is that, as you are being assessed for competency to act in that role, you must be assumed to be PinC. Unless you fail.
The assumption there is that, as you are being assessed for competency to act in that role, you must be assumed to be PinC. Unless you fail.
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Rather than give a smart arse response HH, how about you tell us how you would log this in your log book?
).However if you must know how I would log it, it would be CORRECTLY!
At the briefing stage the ATO should be making it clear that the pilot under check is to make all COMMAND decisions. If the ATO has to intervene in any way it is usually (should be) a FAIL. Normally one can't fail while receiving dual instruction, but the necessity to instruct on a test is fail material of itself. Depending on the ATO, a test gone wrong is sometimes allowed to continue on the basis that it is then training and would then be logged as ICUS or dual.
The only tests I ever logged as ICUS were initial rating or endorsement tests, because of course at that stage I was not qualified to be in command under the IFR, or in command of the particular type etc. But certainly not dual because the 'instruction' was over, or I would not have been there in the first place. Ditto with line training - the training logged as ICUS but the check-to-line as command. The nature of the check and name of the check pilot/examiner always clearly shown in the notes alongside the flight, so anyone auditing the logbooks would know that there had been no attempt to falsify the entry or over-claim command hours.
Taking cover from the experts now.......
The only tests I ever logged as ICUS were initial rating or endorsement tests, because of course at that stage I was not qualified to be in command under the IFR, or in command of the particular type etc. But certainly not dual because the 'instruction' was over, or I would not have been there in the first place. Ditto with line training - the training logged as ICUS but the check-to-line as command. The nature of the check and name of the check pilot/examiner always clearly shown in the notes alongside the flight, so anyone auditing the logbooks would know that there had been no attempt to falsify the entry or over-claim command hours.
Taking cover from the experts now.......
The only tests I ever logged as ICUS were initial rating or endorsement tests, because of course at that stage I was not qualified to be in command
Not qualified = not in command.
In my example above - a Chief Pilot or CFI flight check - the victim MUST be qualified to act as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned, on the operations proposed (otherwise WTF is he doing there?).
I am sure the ATO Manual will have guidance on this matter
Not qualified = not in command.
Back to ATO country,
From the ATO Manual
Pilot-in-Command: The ATO is the pilot in command when occupying a control seat.
Applicants will log dual for all flight tests except when undertaking a CIR renewal. If the
applicant is the holder of a CPL with current CIR and meets the appropriate recency
requirements, the applicant may log ICUS. When the ATO occupies a backseat/jump seat,
(in a mentoring role/observing role), he is not the pilot-in-command.
Applicants will log dual for all flight tests except when undertaking a CIR renewal. If the
applicant is the holder of a CPL with current CIR and meets the appropriate recency
requirements, the applicant may log ICUS. When the ATO occupies a backseat/jump seat,
(in a mentoring role/observing role), he is not the pilot-in-command.
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MakeitHappenCaptain,
You Said it perfectly!
At the end of the day are you really craving the few hours per year ICUS? Log it dual its the law and if you are craving ICUS hours then you have more serious problems. Why does it matter? As a serious question?
You Said it perfectly!
At the end of the day are you really craving the few hours per year ICUS? Log it dual its the law and if you are craving ICUS hours then you have more serious problems. Why does it matter? As a serious question?
Last edited by Angle of Attack; 8th Jun 2009 at 11:11. Reason: I spelt wrong again !