Gear up landing - grass vs sealed strip ?
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Gear up landing - grass vs sealed strip ?
If you had to do an on airport gear up landing and you could choose between a sealed runway or a grass runway (assuming both equally favorable in terms of wind strength and direction) or verge which would you go for ?
I've heard various opinions on this , some say the sealed runway is a better option as there's less risk of a prop digging in that you might get on a grass runway.
I'm sure a few have actually been in this situation , witnessed or repaired an aircraft after a gear up it so what's the preferred option for a gear up landing , grass or sealed runway ?
I've heard various opinions on this , some say the sealed runway is a better option as there's less risk of a prop digging in that you might get on a grass runway.
I'm sure a few have actually been in this situation , witnessed or repaired an aircraft after a gear up it so what's the preferred option for a gear up landing , grass or sealed runway ?
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I have no doubt that you will here many different theories but one that I would recommend (and it is similar for a car accident as well) is, an accident where the deceleration is slower (more gradual) is better for the aircraft and most importantly the human body.
We are not designed to take those kind of knocks and hi g's associated with a sudden stop. As you are more likely to slide a bit more on a sealed runway then perhaps this is an advantage.
(Just to kick things off on this thread!)
We are not designed to take those kind of knocks and hi g's associated with a sudden stop. As you are more likely to slide a bit more on a sealed runway then perhaps this is an advantage.
(Just to kick things off on this thread!)
This is one of those things that you really need to think through before you find yourself in that situation.
I think the evidence is quite clear.
Put it down on the bitumen!
Cheers
Dr
I think the evidence is quite clear.
Put it down on the bitumen!
Cheers
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 27th May 2009 at 08:32.
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I spoke to a aircraft engineer once about this and he had repaired aircraft that had landed gear up on grass and sealed runways and he said that the sealed runway landing is an easier repair as its usually airframe skin repair , antennaes etc as the grass runway landings typically tend to cause more structural damage (airframes bent, engines being torn from mounts) due to airframe parts or props digging in (particularly feathered props)
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Ive been told that in a high wing (and I guess low wing in certain circumstances), there is a risk of your wing digging into the grass and then you start cartwheeling down the strip!
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Not hearing a lot of support for grass - I agree!
The only wheels-up I've personally witnessed (a metro) looked very docile until the thing drifted off onto the grass and did a fairly spritely 180 (at low speed).
There may be a slightly reduced likelyhood of fire on the grass, but plenty of other things would usually make grass a very distant second.
The only wheels-up I've personally witnessed (a metro) looked very docile until the thing drifted off onto the grass and did a fairly spritely 180 (at low speed).
There may be a slightly reduced likelyhood of fire on the grass, but plenty of other things would usually make grass a very distant second.
(particularly feathered props)
Never EVER feather props for a gear up landing!
Aircraft have been known to end up on their backs from such actions.
5 people died from that in an Aztec once.
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Never EVER feather props for a gear up landing!
I saw a really nasty landing on TV years ago of a light twin landing gear up with one prop feathered and the other in fine , the fine prop just bent and the feathered engine was ripped off the wing , nacelle and all.
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Sorry for the slight offtopic but if you're flying down the coast line and need to perform a forced landing where would you land it? The sand or ditch it within the first few feet of water?
That would depend on a few things, but I'd usually go for the sand, unless it was known to be soft, or had obstructions.
Landed on a couple of beaches before, no great drama. Got to avoid the sand above the high water mark, logs, and sunbathers of course.
Landed on a couple of beaches before, no great drama. Got to avoid the sand above the high water mark, logs, and sunbathers of course.
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Sorry for the slight offtopic but if you're flying down the coast line and need to perform a forced landing where would you land it? The sand or ditch it within the first few feet of water?
if the wheels are up.....
hmmm I'd most likely do the same& strap in hard
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Remember when P-51 VH-BOB landed gear up at Point Cook he went for the grass ? Great landing but it looked a bit hairy when he hit a patch of loose soil
I've had this discussion many times over the yrs with lots of pilots from all sorts of backgrounds and the general consensus was as stated above.
A sealed surface if available and leave the props unfeathered.
The results otherwise can be very tragic and expensive.
A sealed surface if available and leave the props unfeathered.
The results otherwise can be very tragic and expensive.
Saw a 210 do an accidental gear up on grass, the engineers lifted it up, put another prop on it, lowered the gear, flew it back to base for repairs. There were no airframe repairs necessary at all, a bit of paint missing and a new aerial was all it took.
Saw a 210 do an accidental gear up on grass, the engineers lifted it up, put another prop on it, lowered the gear, flew it back to base for repairs. There were no airframe repairs necessary at all, a bit of paint missing and a new aerial was all it took.
I wouldnt be too keen on flying anything that had just had a prop strike.
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Flywatcher
Your incident says more about the design merits of the 210 than the adviseability of gear-ups on grass. The following refers to 210s. The Cessna Pilots Association has a vast accident database and they unreservedly recommend landing on a sealed strip, and not to let the firies put down fire retardant as the aircraft just slides on and on till it gets past the end of the retardant and THEN stops. Carry a waddy or capsicum spray to keep the firies away from your aircraft when it stops (my advice). They do more damage with their foam than the wheels-up. Also they are very enthusiastic about using their axes. Landing on grass tends to scoop up heaps of dirt and grass into everything, as well as stretching skin panels and bashing belly ribs that on a tar landing wouldn't be touched.
Cheers
Your incident says more about the design merits of the 210 than the adviseability of gear-ups on grass. The following refers to 210s. The Cessna Pilots Association has a vast accident database and they unreservedly recommend landing on a sealed strip, and not to let the firies put down fire retardant as the aircraft just slides on and on till it gets past the end of the retardant and THEN stops. Carry a waddy or capsicum spray to keep the firies away from your aircraft when it stops (my advice). They do more damage with their foam than the wheels-up. Also they are very enthusiastic about using their axes. Landing on grass tends to scoop up heaps of dirt and grass into everything, as well as stretching skin panels and bashing belly ribs that on a tar landing wouldn't be touched.
Cheers
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Quote:
Never EVER feather props for a gear up landing!
Too right but it still happens
I saw a really nasty landing on TV years ago of a light twin landing gear up with one prop feathered and the other in fine , the fine prop just bent and the feathered engine was ripped off the wing , nacelle and all.
Never EVER feather props for a gear up landing!
Too right but it still happens
I saw a really nasty landing on TV years ago of a light twin landing gear up with one prop feathered and the other in fine , the fine prop just bent and the feathered engine was ripped off the wing , nacelle and all.
I'm just at the PPL training stage, how does feathering the prop make a gear up landing worse?
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Having done both...
Grass with a Baron 58, and Bitumen with a Navajo, I'd rate the ride much better on the bitumen, but the smoke from the heat on the bitumen landing can be a bit disconcerting.
Neither outcome was pretty, but given the choice, I'd go for the bitumen everytime.
Grass with a Baron 58, and Bitumen with a Navajo, I'd rate the ride much better on the bitumen, but the smoke from the heat on the bitumen landing can be a bit disconcerting.
Neither outcome was pretty, but given the choice, I'd go for the bitumen everytime.
Adding to the above - bitumen for sure.
Got that from an aeroplane wrecker bloke i knew. He's seen a LOT of crashed aeroplanes and from a lot of evidence, he said bitumen was definitely the go.
Got that from an aeroplane wrecker bloke i knew. He's seen a LOT of crashed aeroplanes and from a lot of evidence, he said bitumen was definitely the go.